The Flow: Episode 114 - Speak Without a Script: Mastering On-Camera Improv with Michael Gendler | The Flow

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<v Music>

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<v Doc>Aloha Flowriders and welcome to this edition of The Flow. Today is going to

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<v Doc>be a good one because Katie is giddy.

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<v Doc>I am your host, Doc Rock, and welcome to my awesome co-host.

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<v Katie>It's Katie. You know me now.

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<v Doc>There you go. You know what it is. I like the sweater. That is awesome.

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<v Doc>Did you buy that when we went there or you already had that?

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<v Katie>So I was in the Chicago airport, and it was aggressively cold.

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<v Katie>And I'm really proud of myself because I was like, I'm not going to spend any

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<v Katie>money. I'm just going to live with this. And then I walked by,

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<v Katie>and there was this sweatshirt.

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<v Katie>It was only $20, which I think is a steal.

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<v Doc>Oh, come on.

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<v Katie>It's like, it's cool. It says Chicago. I love Chicago. So yeah,

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<v Katie>so I'm repping Chicago today. Hello to all of our Chicago fans.

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<v Doc>Oh, my God. That's awesome. I forgot where Paul and I went, but it was someplace

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<v Doc>that I would never go to, but I was so freezing when I was in Mass.

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<v Doc>And then we went in and I found a really cool Boston Celtics sweatshirt for

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<v Doc>like 15 bucks and I bought it and I actually liked it. And they were like,

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<v Doc>oh, that's a really nice sweatshirt.

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<v Doc>And I was like, I'd never in a million years would have walked into this store

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<v Doc>because it's like not in my wheelhouse. But it was funny.

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<v Doc>Okay, so what are we talking about today, Cates?

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<v Katie>All right. So we are talking about in another podcast, a huge podcast.

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<v Katie>It is called Tony and Ryan.

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<v Katie>But I want to give a content warning.

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<v Katie>So I chose today's episode because I think that we can learn a lot from listening

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<v Katie>and watching other podcasts.

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<v Katie>And this one is one of my favorites. But I will say that this podcast does have

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<v Katie>a lot of salty language and slightly scandalous topics.

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<v Katie>And so if this is not the kind of podcast for you, I still think you'll learn

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<v Katie>a lot in this episode, but please don't go over and listen or watch this podcast

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<v Katie>if you are not a fan of salty language or inappropriate content.

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<v Katie>I just think it makes a really great example. So, yeah, we're diving into what

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<v Katie>we can steal from other podcasts. And in this particular one,

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<v Katie>we are talking about the Tony and Ryan podcast, which is a comedy podcast out of Australia.

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<v Katie>I dropped the link into the chat, and it's also in all the descriptions and show notes.

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<v Katie>But, yeah, I'm excited. I have forced many a person to listen to this show.

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<v Katie>So today we're going to talk all about it.

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<v Doc>It is funny. It's an absolute train wreck, but that's why it's funny.

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<v Doc>I mean, that entirety of that train wreck was there because it's almost like,

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<v Doc>The rubberneck syndrome, right? When you see a car accident,

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<v Doc>you want to look at it and see what's going to happen.

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<v Doc>Because it is such a train wreck, you're kind of waiting to see what the next

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<v Doc>train wreck is going to be.

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<v Speaker2>Yep.

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<v Doc>But it's an organized train wreck, if that makes any sense.

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<v Katie>Yeah. I picked this one specifically for a few different reasons.

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<v Katie>Um, one is that it is a daily podcast, which is something I would never want

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<v Katie>to do, but I think it's a great kind of learning experience for,

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<v Katie>um, for people and they pull it off really, really well.

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<v Katie>Obviously these two are full-time podcasters, so this is their full job,

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<v Katie>but it is a daily podcast.

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<v Katie>It started by, uh, implementing, they had like, I think it was once a week,

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<v Katie>they did a YouTube-specific episode that was also available for listeners.

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<v Katie>But the other four days of the week were audio-only episodes.

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<v Katie>So they started with that format, and then they have since changed to now all

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<v Katie>of their episodes are both available on YouTube as well as listening-friendly.

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<v Katie>And they do a really phenomenal job as well with their community,

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<v Katie>and that is where they get the majority, if not all, of their content.

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<v Katie>Because it is a show that is basically just two best friends talking about all

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<v Katie>kinds of different things.

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<v Katie>And as I said, it's a comedy podcast.

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<v Katie>So I think it's a really, really great example for all of us because they are doing the most.

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<v Katie>They are doing probably the quote unquote hardest thing. And they are,

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<v Katie>as far as content planning and topics. They're also not overly niche.

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<v Katie>So they are kind of breaking a lot of the different rules that exist out there,

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<v Katie>but they do it really effectively. And I think that there's a lot that we can

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<v Katie>learn from them and from what they're doing. So.

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<v Doc>All right. So two things, the rules are there to sort of help the beginners

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<v Doc>so that they don't flail until they build their audience.

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<v Doc>Once you build your audience and you have buy-in from your audience you can

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<v Doc>break every freaking rule in the book because your people are already there

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<v Doc>right when you're trying to uh let's say if you start a burger restaurant right

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<v Doc>you can't come out the gate with tartar.

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<v Doc>Because you said burger restaurant. You didn't say tartare restaurant.

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<v Doc>It was a whole different thing.

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<v Doc>And there's tartare from all myriad cultures, right?

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<v Doc>So like in Korean is yukyejang, right? But, you know, of course there's your

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<v Doc>standard tartare. There's various different tartars.

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<v Doc>So, yeah, the rules are there mostly for, and if you look at,

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<v Doc>this is where people get in trouble.

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<v Doc>Because when we tell people they got to make a niche or do these various other

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<v Doc>things that are the quote unquote rules,

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<v Doc>rules then they go well so-and-so doesn't have any rules i'm like yeah

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<v Doc>so-and-so has 20 million followers ding dong so

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<v Doc>if 10 of their people don't show up one day they got they still

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<v Doc>have 200 uh that's the other way around if 90 percent

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<v Doc>of their people doesn't show up they still got 200 thousand you

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<v Doc>know people listening like you you're not in that boat you

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<v Doc>you have to follow you know a little bit of the structure so yeah

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<v Doc>the first thing is those rules are there mostly to help

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<v Doc>beginners not flail and then the other

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<v Doc>part is i'll take okay i don't want to say this because i don't want to be dismissive

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<v Doc>but if you were to do okay computers ain't even been invented yet most of us

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<v Doc>are old enough to be around where they're kind of like semi barely around like well,

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<v Doc>they've been around since the 60s but you know i mean the way

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<v Doc>we do it today like you know everybody has one in their house every personal

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<v Doc>person in the house has one personally you know like there's four

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<v Doc>in your house right like that right which is strange

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<v Doc>because i have eight and it's just me i don't make any sense anyway but me and

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<v Doc>my friends every morning while we're waiting for the homeroom or at the office

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<v Doc>you know the quote-unquote water cooler talk before the shift starts.

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<v Doc>You had like 20 minute yap session about everything that popped into everybody's

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<v Doc>mind recorded that that's a podcast.

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<v Katie>That is literally this podcast. So not 100%.

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<v Doc>So because people spend too much time looking at other people's ish,

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<v Doc>instead of paying attention to their own paper, they think that that's not a podcast.

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<v Doc>I mean, to the point where not to be picky, But I've mentioned it a couple of

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<v Doc>times because it was very enlightening to me that MC thought a podcast needed to be an hour.

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<v Doc>Like, you know, and again, that's because all of the marketing people that we

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<v Doc>know that we're friends with, they'd love to do their shows exactly an hour and cut it like it would.

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<v Doc>It can't be an hour and one second for no reason. But they all just do it.

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<v Doc>So it kind of becomes a thing.

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<v Speaker2>Yep.

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<v Doc>And, you know, here I come from Twitter where we have three hour podcasts.

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<v Doc>And I also got people that got three-minute podcasts.

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<v Speaker2>Yep.

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<v Doc>So the fact that, like, I guarantee you, everybody in the chat right this second,

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<v Doc>except for someone who doesn't have any friends, Jeremy. I'm joking, Jeremy.

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<v Doc>Could find the buddy, crack the mic, and yap for 15 minutes flawlessly. No problem. Right?

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<v Doc>That could just be me and June. Like, my brother and I are friends like that.

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<v Doc>Like, we could just crack the mic and, what's his name? the Taylor Swift brother

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<v Doc>and brother-in-law, boyfriend and brother-in-law, the Kelsey's.

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<v Doc>Right? Like there's tons of family podcasts where they just crack the mic and talk.

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<v Doc>Like, yeah, so people are overthinking it. So one of the first takeaways you

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<v Doc>could take, you don't have to overthink this.

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<v Speaker2>No.

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<v Doc>Like you technically do that with net, right? We're going to talk about a movie.

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<v Doc>All right, cool. Crack the mic, talk for an hour and some change.

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<v Speaker2>Yeah.

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<v Doc>Go back to having whatever dinner or wine or whatever the case may be.

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<v Doc>Yeah. So I did like, I like that.

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<v Katie>I'll say that like, it is interesting because, so this particular podcast definitely

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<v Katie>has this conversational vibe to it, right?

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<v Katie>And they have a huge community now that they've built up that,

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<v Katie>that behind them that they call the Tarpers, the Tony and Ryan podcasters.

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<v Doc>Ryan podcast.

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<v Katie>So they're called the Tarpers, right? So they have a name. So they've named,

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<v Katie>you know, they've named their community and it's very community focused.

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<v Katie>But it is actually pretty structured.

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<v Katie>So it is interesting that they allow a lot of time for banter and conversation.

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<v Katie>But they've created segments and structures so that they know what to fall back

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<v Katie>on. There's a vibe and a flow for each episode so that their community knows what to expect.

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<v Katie>So a couple of the things that they do, which I think are...

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<v Katie>Are really smart and I wanted to talk through is the first thing off the bat.

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<v Katie>So as I said, they have this, they have a community. They actually have a couple

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<v Katie>of different community spaces where their community is and can contribute to

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<v Katie>the conversation. And they, you know, they, they spend a lot of time digitally

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<v Katie>and in person with their community.

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<v Katie>But the intro to all of their episodes starts with a phone call from one of

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<v Katie>their members, one of their tarpers calls and quote unquote approves their podcast.

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<v Katie>So they set the tone right at the very beginning of the podcast that they have

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<v Katie>a community and that their community is involved in the podcast and they're

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<v Katie>not even going to do the episode until the podcast is approved.

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<v Katie>And it is this like fun moment for them to kind of banter and involve a community member.

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<v Katie>They always like ask a question or get the community member to tell a story or something fun.

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<v Katie>It's only a few, maybe a couple of minutes at the very beginning of the episode,

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<v Katie>but it kicks off and sets the tone for the entire episode.

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<v Katie>And it's easy for them to repeat, right? They know that every single episode

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<v Katie>kicks off with a tarper who approves the podcast.

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<v Katie>So much so that in a recent episode, they joked because one of their listeners

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<v Katie>doesn't listen to any other podcast and had no idea that all podcasts don't do this.

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<v Katie>In their mind, they were like, all podcasts kick off with someone approving the podcast.

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<v Katie>You can't have a podcast without someone approving it, right?

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<v Katie>That's the level of fandom that they've created. But again, this is a great

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<v Katie>tip for all of us to pick up on is that it's one thing to build a community,

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<v Katie>but really understanding how you can involve your community in the actual show.

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<v Katie>And what are those defined moments that are repeatable that you can create to

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<v Katie>make it a fun experience for your listeners and for your viewers?

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<v Katie>Lou Mangiello does a really great job of this as well.

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<v Katie>Shout out to Lou, who is a speaker at our upcoming camp event.

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<v Katie>He always asks a question to his audience.

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<v Katie>And there's like many cases like, you know, it's like a kind of trivia giveaway feel to it.

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<v Katie>So his community knows that there's always going to be this question that they

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<v Katie>have to answer, that they're participating in part of the episode creation, right?

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<v Katie>All of you who are hanging out with us here live in our studio audience, right?

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<v Katie>You know that you're Flowriders. You know, if you're live in the studio audience,

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<v Katie>we're going to see some of your names.

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<v Katie>We're going to shout you out. We're going to take your questions live, right? So yeah.

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<v Katie>I think from the very start, kind of having a really good understanding of community

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<v Katie>is a great thing we can steal from this show.

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<v Katie>And knowing what you're going to do with your community. So it doesn't have

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<v Katie>to be, you don't have to take their specific idea of approving a podcast episode.

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<v Katie>But think through like why podcasters and creators are doing the things that

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<v Katie>they're doing, what you like about it, and what you think is the reasoning behind it.

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<v Katie>Because that's what you can take to your show and give it your own flavor and your own spice.

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<v Katie>What do you think, Doc? Yeah.

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<v Doc>And I think that's big too. I mean, you know me, like I'm like,

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<v Doc>it's funny because you go to conferences, all everybody talks about is growing

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<v Doc>their audience, their audience, their audience.

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<v Doc>And I'm like, yo, you really got to change that. And it seems like,

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<v Doc>it seems trivial, but there's a huge difference between the audience and the community.

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<v Doc>Audience just listen. It's literally in the breakdown of the word,

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<v Doc>right? Whereas the community requires some back and forth, you know, things like that.

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<v Doc>You know, when someone wants an audience with you, they just want you to listen to them.

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<v Doc>And yeah, it's a whole different vibe. So I do think that part was funny,

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<v Doc>especially, you know, the lady who had to add USA to the end of her.

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<v Doc>And she's in a pretty prominent city that didn't require her to add the USA.

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<v Katie>It's like, I'm in Chicago, USA.

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<v Doc>USA. I'm like, really? Thanks, lady. Everybody already thinks we're dumb, like chill out.

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<v Doc>Um, well, I think, you know, again,

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<v Doc>what, what makes it so good is the fact that they are just having this conversation,

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<v Doc>but you know, you know, you mentioned the structure of it and of course it's there.

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<v Doc>You can tell, um, they have it sort of segmented out, but I'm willing to bet.

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<v Doc>If you have a weekly or daily gathering with friends at work or whatever,

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<v Doc>there's a structure that you just might not realize it there.

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<v Doc>Right. So, for instance, if we were all, you know, oh, we have it right now.

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<v Doc>OK, so we're in the office, you know, me, you, Caleb, Paul, Jill having a meeting.

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<v Doc>And right when we get ready to go live, Ken walks in and makes coffee.

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<v Doc>That's structure. Like that happens every time. Not a little bit, every time.

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<v Doc>Right now in in the podcast right when we started you would have heard the the

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<v Doc>the bell kick off right well you're not at the office today but if you're at

00:14:43.616 --> 00:14:47.596

<v Doc>the office you would have heard the Amesbury horn so even the things that you

00:14:47.596 --> 00:14:51.236

<v Doc>don't realize you have a structure in you have a structure which is why the Mr.

00:14:51.356 --> 00:14:56.916

<v Doc>Rogers intro was kind of funny because people don't realize they do that they

00:14:56.916 --> 00:15:01.596

<v Doc>walk in the house put down their keys change their shoes yeah I put on my jacket

00:15:01.596 --> 00:15:04.856

<v Doc>because it's freezing in my house because I live with an Eskimo.

00:15:05.676 --> 00:15:09.096

<v Doc>And you do the same thing every day. So you actually already have the structure

00:15:09.096 --> 00:15:10.836

<v Doc>stuff and you just don't realize it.

00:15:11.176 --> 00:15:14.756

<v Doc>Like even if you're flailing your show, you probably still have structure and

00:15:14.756 --> 00:15:17.896

<v Doc>don't realize it. So you just got to lean into those, right?

00:15:18.096 --> 00:15:24.436

<v Doc>If you have a thing where, you know, this time of year, you're going to always

00:15:24.436 --> 00:15:27.576

<v Doc>be sniffling, allergy season just kicked off.

00:15:28.116 --> 00:15:30.996

<v Doc>This is going to be me till November. Like you could just lean into it.

00:15:30.996 --> 00:15:33.516

<v Doc>You can make it a thing and be like not sponsored by Kleenex,

00:15:33.616 --> 00:15:36.576

<v Doc>but Kleenex, Hey, we're open to, uh, we're open to options.

00:15:36.836 --> 00:15:38.896

<v Doc>Like, you know, it becomes a thing. Everybody is laughing.

00:15:39.176 --> 00:15:42.756

<v Doc>So Tony has, uh, like, you know, travel flu or something.

00:15:43.692 --> 00:15:48.772

<v Doc>And she's spending like half the show sniffling and wiping her nose and like

00:15:48.772 --> 00:15:50.532

<v Doc>blowing her nose or whatever.

00:15:50.852 --> 00:15:56.712

<v Doc>And it's just funny because, you know, she's normally at her studio at home doing her thing.

00:15:56.872 --> 00:15:59.232

<v Doc>But you come to a different country, you probably going to catch the sniffles

00:15:59.232 --> 00:16:00.772

<v Doc>because you're just not used to it.

00:16:01.012 --> 00:16:04.292

<v Doc>Right. So I find all of that was hilarious. It's super good.

00:16:04.692 --> 00:16:11.172

<v Katie>Yeah, I love it. And I think that, again, this show does a great job of structure,

00:16:11.172 --> 00:16:15.032

<v Katie>but they're not boxed in by the structure.

00:16:15.272 --> 00:16:17.772

<v Katie>So they clearly have a number of different segments.

00:16:18.252 --> 00:16:22.752

<v Katie>Normal or Nah is my favorite and one they do on a regular basis.

00:16:22.952 --> 00:16:28.932

<v Katie>But if you listen to the show often, you will notice that it's not every single

00:16:28.932 --> 00:16:31.712

<v Katie>show that they do the Normal or Nah segment.

00:16:31.712 --> 00:16:36.572

<v Katie>It is, they clearly have like a box of segment ideas that they are constantly

00:16:36.572 --> 00:16:38.772

<v Katie>putting new segment ideas into.

00:16:39.052 --> 00:16:42.572

<v Katie>And they just, each episode, it's almost like they pull from the box and are

00:16:42.572 --> 00:16:44.512

<v Katie>like, okay, this episode they're going to do normal or not.

00:16:44.732 --> 00:16:48.232

<v Katie>This other episode they're going to do confessions.

00:16:48.492 --> 00:16:52.692

<v Katie>They have their tarpers send in confessions. They have like another episode

00:16:52.692 --> 00:16:53.532

<v Katie>where they're going to do.

00:16:53.632 --> 00:16:58.072

<v Katie>So they have segments, but they are flexible enough to be always testing and

00:16:58.072 --> 00:17:01.912

<v Katie>trying out different segments. and they're responding to what the,

00:17:01.912 --> 00:17:05.752

<v Katie>you know, what the community, what their community wants to hear from them or

00:17:05.752 --> 00:17:07.452

<v Katie>what's timely and interesting at the time.

00:17:07.632 --> 00:17:10.692

<v Katie>And they're flexible enough that if something was to come up because they're

00:17:10.692 --> 00:17:13.092

<v Katie>a daily podcast, they're just going to talk about that instead.

00:17:13.372 --> 00:17:17.292

<v Katie>So it, so again, if you're like a planner, like me, and you're an overthinker,

00:17:17.552 --> 00:17:22.192

<v Katie>like, you know, like many of us are out there, have segments to give you ideas

00:17:22.192 --> 00:17:23.412

<v Katie>and to keep the flow coming.

00:17:23.632 --> 00:17:26.612

<v Katie>But, you know, but maybe we could take as an idea from this show,

00:17:26.772 --> 00:17:33.012

<v Katie>the, the level flexibility that you can bank a bunch of segment ideas and swap

00:17:33.012 --> 00:17:36.472

<v Katie>them in as you need them, but be flexible enough that if the show content is

00:17:36.472 --> 00:17:38.692

<v Katie>going in a great direction, go with that.

00:17:38.872 --> 00:17:42.452

<v Katie>Like you, you know, you'll see which segments after a while are the ones that

00:17:43.116 --> 00:17:45.636

<v Katie>Are the most popular or that really resonate with your community.

00:17:45.836 --> 00:17:49.076

<v Katie>But it's not like you, you know, you haven't failed in the episode if you don't

00:17:49.076 --> 00:17:53.076

<v Katie>do that segment each and every single time. And I think the show is a great example of that.

00:17:53.796 --> 00:17:56.636

<v Katie>Our show doesn't have segments at all. And often I'm like, oh man,

00:17:56.816 --> 00:17:58.636

<v Katie>you know, we started with the idea of segments.

00:17:58.816 --> 00:18:00.316

<v Katie>We were, we were doing like one,

00:18:00.676 --> 00:18:04.356

<v Katie>you know, three, three points per episode was how the show kicked off.

00:18:04.476 --> 00:18:08.016

<v Katie>And then we were going to chop that up into like little smaller video points.

00:18:08.016 --> 00:18:11.176

<v Katie>And then it just didn't make sense for how we wanted the show to go.

00:18:11.256 --> 00:18:14.196

<v Katie>And so we were able to be flexible with it. we could add segments in at any

00:18:14.196 --> 00:18:20.316

<v Katie>time and and swap and test that out but um but i think structure flexibility is important

00:18:20.316 --> 00:18:23.736

<v Doc>Correct so we have um we

00:18:23.736 --> 00:18:27.196

<v Doc>start off with the question of the day uh for

00:18:27.196 --> 00:18:30.136

<v Doc>mary lou and i we start off with a question of the day then we go into two bullet

00:18:30.136 --> 00:18:33.496

<v Doc>points and then we do pick it a week and then we go into the last bullet point

00:18:33.496 --> 00:18:39.356

<v Doc>and then after that we give like the key takeaway or you know something that

00:18:39.356 --> 00:18:43.716

<v Doc>people can try sort of semi call to action semi like what's which what really

00:18:43.716 --> 00:18:48.556

<v Doc>matters and then at the very end mary lou does uh rapid fire questions,

00:18:49.396 --> 00:18:52.076

<v Doc>for me that you know you don't get a

00:18:52.076 --> 00:18:55.316

<v Doc>chance to think about it you just got to go in and answer and in

00:18:55.316 --> 00:18:58.616

<v Doc>the notes like there's a little drop down and it's

00:18:58.616 --> 00:19:01.576

<v Doc>a running joke now that like you know almost 40

00:19:01.576 --> 00:19:04.676

<v Doc>episodes in i've never clicked that little twirly to

00:19:04.676 --> 00:19:07.576

<v Doc>see what's under there because this notion right yeah but even

00:19:07.576 --> 00:19:11.196

<v Doc>the fact that we build the note the document like

00:19:11.196 --> 00:19:17.556

<v Doc>before we start the recording live so that everybody can see that we'll change

00:19:17.556 --> 00:19:23.376

<v Doc>the topic right before we go yep and you'll watch us change the topic because

00:19:23.376 --> 00:19:28.136

<v Doc>something comes up and it will rewrite the entire show right then and there

00:19:28.136 --> 00:19:30.316

<v Doc>based on something somebody brought up in the chat.

00:19:31.486 --> 00:19:36.806

<v Doc>You know, and it's to get people over the fact of overthinking it.

00:19:37.006 --> 00:19:41.546

<v Doc>It's to get past this concept of you need to have it completely planned out.

00:19:41.866 --> 00:19:47.966

<v Doc>And I find on the shows where we do a last minute, you know what?

00:19:48.046 --> 00:19:52.526

<v Doc>We're going to do this because this just happened and this needs to be squared. Those are better.

00:19:53.626 --> 00:19:58.606

<v Doc>They just are. Don't ask me why. I got no science to it, but they just are.

00:19:58.826 --> 00:20:02.266

<v Doc>So you're right. having that flexibility again

00:20:02.266 --> 00:20:05.066

<v Doc>one thing about having a

00:20:05.066 --> 00:20:08.006

<v Doc>structure is again it's

00:20:08.006 --> 00:20:13.466

<v Doc>a scaffolding so you can break it all you want but what it does help you with

00:20:13.466 --> 00:20:18.246

<v Doc>is when you're absolutely blanking you can always go to the scaffolding because

00:20:18.246 --> 00:20:22.806

<v Doc>there's something for you to grab onto yep and then you can go from there that's

00:20:22.806 --> 00:20:27.306

<v Doc>the whole point of having this structure It isn't to box you in.

00:20:28.026 --> 00:20:32.986

<v Doc>It's to imagine your body with no skeleton. There you go. That's the end of that.

00:20:33.566 --> 00:20:38.506

<v Doc>Just a blob. You need to be a big old blob like of nothing.

00:20:38.746 --> 00:20:44.326

<v Doc>So it's like that is really something for you to grab onto and sort of make it a thing.

00:20:44.326 --> 00:20:53.126

<v Doc>And strangely enough, against all thought process, I think that most people,

00:20:53.386 --> 00:20:57.186

<v Doc>when they're first starting out, should start with a daily.

00:20:57.986 --> 00:21:01.546

<v Doc>And nobody wants to hear that because everybody thinks it's too much work.

00:21:01.706 --> 00:21:04.886

<v Doc>But I think everybody and their mother should start with a daily.

00:21:06.566 --> 00:21:10.446

<v Doc>292 days into making a video every day and not even sweating.

00:21:11.798 --> 00:21:16.178

<v Doc>I haven't broken the sweat. It hasn't caused me a single bout of pain,

00:21:16.318 --> 00:21:18.538

<v Doc>including when we are traveling.

00:21:19.058 --> 00:21:23.838

<v Doc>We're done. We out. We went to go eat, drink, the whole nine yards.

00:21:24.058 --> 00:21:26.778

<v Doc>I'm like, all right, I'm going back to record my show. And they're like,

00:21:26.858 --> 00:21:28.518

<v Doc>but it's 1030. And I'm like, and?

00:21:29.478 --> 00:21:33.758

<v Doc>Right? Not even a thought because you have to get it done. So I go and I record.

00:21:33.858 --> 00:21:37.338

<v Doc>And I'm not making like, oh, here's a short. Here's my lunch. Okay, that's the video.

00:21:37.558 --> 00:21:40.898

<v Doc>I make a full-ass video. like recorded

00:21:40.898 --> 00:21:43.698

<v Doc>sometimes edited sometimes not sometimes i

00:21:43.698 --> 00:21:46.878

<v Doc>barely even edited it like yesterday's episode no edit i said

00:21:46.878 --> 00:21:50.258

<v Doc>what i had to say put the end card ship it right

00:21:50.258 --> 00:21:53.698

<v Doc>but the reps and

00:21:53.698 --> 00:21:59.178

<v Doc>i mentioned this in my video yesterday okay so your goal is to be seen by as

00:21:59.178 --> 00:22:02.538

<v Doc>many people as possible that's what everybody wants no matter what what lies

00:22:02.538 --> 00:22:05.478

<v Doc>you tell yourself at the end of the day is what everybody wants because if you

00:22:05.478 --> 00:22:08.378

<v Doc>go somewhere and you ask somebody like if you can have anything you want in

00:22:08.378 --> 00:22:10.938

<v Doc>your podcast you want. I want more viewers. I want more listeners.

00:22:11.158 --> 00:22:13.558

<v Doc>I want more subscribers. Whatever the terminology that you use,

00:22:13.718 --> 00:22:15.038

<v Doc>that is what everybody says.

00:22:15.878 --> 00:22:21.958

<v Doc>And if you want more eyeballs, you want more promotion, then you need to put

00:22:21.958 --> 00:22:24.898

<v Doc>more places for it to be grabbed, right?

00:22:25.138 --> 00:22:29.238

<v Doc>So I mentioned the concept and strangely enough,

00:22:29.358 --> 00:22:33.998

<v Doc>the concept that I thought about this, The analogy came from your barn,

00:22:33.998 --> 00:22:40.318

<v Doc>but I'm like, if I'm trying to throw darts and hit the bullseye and I make a

00:22:40.318 --> 00:22:43.598

<v Doc>weekly episode while I'm trying to, you know,

00:22:43.778 --> 00:22:47.458

<v Doc>make my perfect show, I have four chances to hit the bullseye.

00:22:48.860 --> 00:22:52.700

<v Doc>But if I'm making a daily show while I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing,

00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:57.340

<v Doc>I have 31, 30, or 28, or 29. That didn't say that right.

00:22:57.540 --> 00:23:03.720

<v Doc>31, 30, 29, 28 days, or 28 chances to hit the freaking bullseye.

00:23:04.260 --> 00:23:05.540

<v Doc>Who's going to hit the bullseye first?

00:23:06.280 --> 00:23:11.340

<v Doc>It's a probability situation, right? So all of the people who are brand new

00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:13.020

<v Doc>who are like, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do.

00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:15.080

<v Doc>Cool. You don't need to know what to do.

00:23:15.620 --> 00:23:19.180

<v Doc>Just make 100 episodes of practice. You could actually hide them.

00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:22.740

<v Doc>You could call that season zero and then come up with season one.

00:23:23.060 --> 00:23:29.100

<v Doc>But the idea of waiting to put one out every three, four weeks because I'm still figuring it out.

00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:34.000

<v Doc>I'm going to be absolute mean, stupid. It just is.

00:23:34.260 --> 00:23:37.400

<v Doc>And I don't care if you mad at me for saying that. Call me, email me,

00:23:37.580 --> 00:23:42.020

<v Doc>doc at Ecamm. I'm down to know. But if you're trying to get good at it, you got to do it.

00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.940

<v Doc>And that's the only way. It just really is.

00:23:45.560 --> 00:23:51.800

<v Katie>Yeah. And I like, I will, I will say too, that I am definitely aware of the

00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:57.760

<v Katie>fact that, you know, a show like this or even like ours, like you're coming

00:23:57.760 --> 00:23:59.620

<v Katie>in and listening and we have a community.

00:23:59.820 --> 00:24:03.480

<v Katie>The show, you know, the Tony and Ryan show, they have a community.

00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:07.780

<v Katie>But as they were thinking through these different segments initially,

00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:12.820

<v Katie>there wasn't anyone to ask, you know, to get content from for these segments.

00:24:12.820 --> 00:24:17.780

<v Katie>So the normal or nah segment that they do, they literally take from their community

00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:20.060

<v Katie>group people who will share stories.

00:24:20.260 --> 00:24:25.740

<v Katie>So they'll say like, you know, Doc loves to wake up at four in the morning so

00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.520

<v Katie>that he can have his coffee and get all, you know, get going. Is that normal or nah?

00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:33.460

<v Katie>And then Tony and Ryan will say like, nah, waking up that early in the morning

00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:36.680

<v Katie>is crazy. And like, and they have this whole discussion back and forth on it, right? Right.

00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:42.360

<v Katie>But they could have started that segment just asking each other normal or not

00:24:42.360 --> 00:24:43.720

<v Katie>questions that were relatable.

00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:48.520

<v Katie>And the more that their audience heard that each and every episode or however

00:24:48.520 --> 00:24:52.120

<v Katie>often they did their segments, and the more that they were constantly posing

00:24:52.120 --> 00:24:56.500

<v Katie>that question to their community, then they start making it easy for their community

00:24:56.500 --> 00:24:57.800

<v Katie>to respond back and answer.

00:24:57.820 --> 00:25:01.500

<v Katie>So they built a space where people can type up those things and send them in.

00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.960

<v Katie>The more people start actually contributing to it. So it is going to take time.

00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:06.380

<v Katie>So if you're sitting here and you're like,

00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.239

<v Katie>Katie and Doc, I tried that, but my audience is not responding right away or

00:25:12.239 --> 00:25:14.199

<v Katie>it's crickets and I'm not hearing anything.

00:25:15.499 --> 00:25:18.439

<v Katie>The idea of segments is also, as Doc was saying,

00:25:19.139 --> 00:25:23.459

<v Katie>is letting you build up being consistent because it takes people a long time

00:25:23.459 --> 00:25:27.959

<v Katie>of hearing the same thing over and over again before they feel like they want

00:25:27.959 --> 00:25:31.319

<v Katie>to contribute or they have a story they want to share or they want to do the

00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:32.639

<v Katie>thing that you're asking them to do.

00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:38.539

<v Katie>So you do need to get consistent on doing those, whether it's daily or weekly,

00:25:38.619 --> 00:25:41.759

<v Katie>whatever your consistency is, and whether it's a segment or your entire show,

00:25:42.019 --> 00:25:44.939

<v Katie>a community is not going to happen overnight. It's going to take some time.

00:25:45.139 --> 00:25:47.279

<v Katie>And finding your footing is not going to happen overnight. It's going to take

00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:52.819

<v Katie>some time. So it, again, is a good example of thinking through what you want

00:25:52.819 --> 00:25:59.619

<v Katie>to talk about, but also thinking through what might be relatable or interesting or, you know,

00:26:00.479 --> 00:26:02.359

<v Katie>Submission worthy of your community.

00:26:02.499 --> 00:26:04.879

<v Katie>Like what are the things that they actually want to talk about,

00:26:04.979 --> 00:26:06.219

<v Katie>the community you're trying to build?

00:26:06.439 --> 00:26:10.139

<v Katie>What are the things that they want to talk about, right? Like my community on

00:26:10.139 --> 00:26:14.899

<v Katie>my podcast, they want to talk about old movies and everyone has a favorite movie

00:26:14.899 --> 00:26:17.819

<v Katie>or a movie that they love or a movie that they fully memorized.

00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:22.159

<v Katie>And if I can find what that movie is, like, or, you know, and they,

00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:23.979

<v Katie>then they want to come to that episode, right?

00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.959

<v Katie>They want to be able to share their experience of that episode of that movie.

00:26:27.099 --> 00:26:29.699

<v Katie>They want to share their story. They want to be on the episode.

00:26:29.979 --> 00:26:33.859

<v Katie>So it's for me, my challenge is thinking through, you know, how do I,

00:26:33.859 --> 00:26:38.939

<v Katie>How do I get them to contribute on a regular basis to help, you know,

00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:42.619

<v Katie>be part of my community, even if we're not talking about their favorite movie?

00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:45.779

<v Katie>How can I introduce them to different movies? Like, what is that balancing act?

00:26:45.919 --> 00:26:52.899

<v Katie>So you need to, as a creator, think about what audience and community are you trying to build?

00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.939

<v Katie>And what are the things that they find relatable and interesting so that you

00:26:56.939 --> 00:27:00.279

<v Katie>can start building out some of these segments or building out some of this loose

00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.639

<v Katie>structure that helps create that community down the road?

00:27:03.639 --> 00:27:08.039

<v Katie>So I think, again, this show is a great example of it because they have made

00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:15.439

<v Katie>these topics easy for people to contribute to and also super relatable to a pretty large audience.

00:27:15.719 --> 00:27:20.279

<v Katie>So like there's everyone has weird things that they do. So it's not hard for

00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:21.759

<v Katie>you to think of something that you could send into them.

00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:22.619

<v Doc>Not hoping to figure it out.

00:27:23.099 --> 00:27:23.539

<v Katie>Right?

00:27:23.939 --> 00:27:28.259

<v Doc>You know, and as far as you tried it, so?

00:27:29.179 --> 00:27:30.519

<v Katie>Try it again. Keep trying it.

00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.399

<v Doc>Right um willie uh

00:27:33.399 --> 00:27:36.279

<v Doc>william kellogg tried for like two

00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:39.339

<v Doc>years to try to make a cereal because he

00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:44.799

<v Doc>hated cw and marjorie post and they just nothing happened yeah and then one

00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:49.739

<v Doc>day he left the grains out and they kind of poofed up and he was like you idiot

00:27:49.739 --> 00:27:53.039

<v Doc>why'd you leave this out and the worker was like my bad my bad you know and

00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:56.799

<v Doc>he's just snapping at this point because he's losing in his cookies, so to speak.

00:27:57.199 --> 00:28:01.719

<v Doc>And then he said, well, roll it out. Let's see what happens if we flatten it.

00:28:03.427 --> 00:28:04.387

<v Doc>Corn Flakes.

00:28:04.567 --> 00:28:05.327

<v Katie>Corn Flakes, yep.

00:28:05.567 --> 00:28:10.747

<v Doc>Like, which you eat every single day. Like, blue Marjorie and C.W. post out the water.

00:28:11.187 --> 00:28:14.907

<v Doc>Almost when you ask everybody about cereal now, the word Kellogg comes up.

00:28:15.167 --> 00:28:15.307

<v Speaker2>Yep.

00:28:15.667 --> 00:28:19.067

<v Doc>Right? Considered by a failure by his brother. Brother hated him.

00:28:19.427 --> 00:28:25.127

<v Doc>Like, he was at his last. He tried everything. And then he just rolled an accident.

00:28:25.587 --> 00:28:27.927

<v Doc>And then, you know what I'm saying? So, like, who cares that you tried it?

00:28:28.007 --> 00:28:29.187

<v Doc>Do it again. Like, I'm sorry.

00:28:29.607 --> 00:28:33.327

<v Doc>It's just how it works, man. Like so many things that you do every day right now.

00:28:33.487 --> 00:28:37.827

<v Doc>I'm sure there's tons of people in the 80s that tried to make taco restaurant.

00:28:37.847 --> 00:28:40.787

<v Doc>And they're like, no, fam, we only know Taco Bell.

00:28:41.127 --> 00:28:44.147

<v Doc>This little round, soft things that you put in myriad stuff in.

00:28:44.287 --> 00:28:45.747

<v Doc>No, not having it. Not now.

00:28:46.027 --> 00:28:49.387

<v Doc>You cannot walk five feet without hitting the taco restaurant.

00:28:50.167 --> 00:28:54.227

<v Doc>Right. But I'm sure many people tried to do what came up in the mid aughts.

00:28:54.287 --> 00:28:57.327

<v Doc>And I'm talking everywhere in the planet. You can find taco restaurants.

00:28:57.527 --> 00:28:59.647

<v Doc>So, yeah, it doesn't matter that you tried it. Try it again.

00:28:59.647 --> 00:29:03.787

<v Doc>This really is, you know, it's situational.

00:29:04.247 --> 00:29:10.087

<v Doc>All right. So one of the things that you put in the doc too was about their

00:29:10.087 --> 00:29:13.647

<v Doc>audio and visual choices.

00:29:14.587 --> 00:29:22.767

<v Doc>Yep. And I think that their design is so minimal, but it's awesome.

00:29:23.027 --> 00:29:23.167

<v Speaker2>Yep.

00:29:24.487 --> 00:29:29.927

<v Doc>Right. I think, again, one of the things that I see people struggling with is

00:29:29.927 --> 00:29:33.887

<v Doc>I don't know where they got this idea from or where they're trying to design

00:29:33.887 --> 00:29:38.047

<v Doc>the things from, but I see too many people try to over-design their show.

00:29:38.227 --> 00:29:38.507

<v Speaker2>Yep.

00:29:40.027 --> 00:29:48.087

<v Doc>And I look at so many of the quote-unquote large shows, not a drip of design involved.

00:29:48.347 --> 00:29:48.787

<v Speaker2>Mm-hmm.

00:29:50.176 --> 00:29:58.996

<v Doc>So it's almost like, you know, dudes of the 80s thinking that you had to have

00:29:58.996 --> 00:30:04.016

<v Doc>a Camaro or Firebird or Corvette in order to be dateable.

00:30:04.456 --> 00:30:09.396

<v Doc>It turns out like most girls don't care about that stuff, right?

00:30:09.496 --> 00:30:11.536

<v Doc>But we did. We thought that was so important.

00:30:11.816 --> 00:30:16.076

<v Doc>You know, we all, everybody wanted to have the Dukes of Hazzard car or the,

00:30:16.196 --> 00:30:18.256

<v Doc>what is that, Smokey and the Bandit?

00:30:18.636 --> 00:30:18.856

<v Speaker2>Yeah.

00:30:18.856 --> 00:30:21.556

<v Doc>You know, and nobody cared about that but us, right?

00:30:21.736 --> 00:30:27.596

<v Doc>So again, like, don't overthink it and don't over polish something that makes

00:30:27.596 --> 00:30:29.096

<v Doc>it harder for you to keep it up.

00:30:29.096 --> 00:30:35.396

<v Katie>Yeah. So if you have not watched or listened to the show,

00:30:35.576 --> 00:30:40.696

<v Katie>so I have done both, but I actually discovered this show initially through TikTok

00:30:40.696 --> 00:30:46.976

<v Katie>because they are really great at sharing these like perfectly curated,

00:30:46.976 --> 00:30:52.176

<v Katie>fun moments from the show in simple vertical clips.

00:30:52.316 --> 00:30:55.336

<v Katie>These clips did not have captions on them.

00:30:55.556 --> 00:31:00.296

<v Katie>It was just like a clean shot of just one of the hosts, or it went back and

00:31:00.296 --> 00:31:05.036

<v Katie>forth between the two co-hosts, sharing a moment that felt like you were hanging out with friends.

00:31:05.216 --> 00:31:07.676

<v Katie>And for the longest time, I didn't even know it was a podcast.

00:31:08.036 --> 00:31:10.516

<v Katie>They would just come up in TikTok, and I was like, these are hilarious.

00:31:10.656 --> 00:31:11.636

<v Katie>These two people are hilarious.

00:31:12.376 --> 00:31:15.556

<v Katie>It's so fun to hear what they're saying. And I would share them back and forth.

00:31:16.536 --> 00:31:20.196

<v Katie>And then as I started seeing them more, I was like, oh, you know,

00:31:20.196 --> 00:31:21.556

<v Katie>follow this account. I would go back.

00:31:21.656 --> 00:31:26.936

<v Katie>I would find out more information. So again, I will say exactly what Doc said,

00:31:27.036 --> 00:31:29.876

<v Katie>where you don't need to overthink it too much.

00:31:30.076 --> 00:31:35.096

<v Katie>What they have overthought and what they're really intentional with is they

00:31:35.096 --> 00:31:39.936

<v Katie>know what to say versus what to show.

00:31:39.936 --> 00:31:42.836

<v Katie>They know how to balance out the

00:31:42.836 --> 00:31:45.736

<v Katie>fact that they have people who only ever listen and people who

00:31:45.736 --> 00:31:48.516

<v Katie>only ever watch and they make it

00:31:48.516 --> 00:31:52.596

<v Katie>so that it's a great experience doesn't matter where you are consuming their

00:31:52.596 --> 00:31:57.776

<v Katie>content so if you only ever listen to the show at no point are you sitting there

00:31:57.776 --> 00:32:00.696

<v Katie>going like well this is annoying i like they're talking about all this stuff

00:32:00.696 --> 00:32:04.156

<v Katie>i can't see it i like you know i just want to like there's all these laughs

00:32:04.156 --> 00:32:07.076

<v Katie>that are offside that i don't know what's going on.

00:32:07.216 --> 00:32:09.556

<v Katie>Like you can follow it and have a great time if you're listening.

00:32:09.636 --> 00:32:12.036

<v Katie>You can follow it and have a great time if you're watching.

00:32:12.376 --> 00:32:16.136

<v Katie>If you're just seeing a clip, the clip is contained so like you don't feel like

00:32:16.136 --> 00:32:19.596

<v Katie>you're, there's not like this crazy feeling of like you're being forced into

00:32:19.596 --> 00:32:21.016

<v Katie>a platform that you don't want to be in.

00:32:21.136 --> 00:32:26.236

<v Katie>They do a really great job of knowing where they are, how they show up and how

00:32:26.236 --> 00:32:27.416

<v Katie>that feels for their community.

00:32:27.536 --> 00:32:31.416

<v Katie>So I think it's really, I think they do a really smart job with it.

00:32:31.496 --> 00:32:35.376

<v Katie>And as Doc said, I think a lot of it is that their visual performance

00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:40.180

<v Katie>Cues instead of design, like even our show here is designed, right?

00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:45.620

<v Katie>They care a lot more about the actual space, physical space that they're in.

00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:50.680

<v Katie>So they're in like a studio space. So they're, they're creating an experience

00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.400

<v Katie>through the space and not through the design. So there's not heavily branded at all.

00:32:54.560 --> 00:33:00.480

<v Katie>It's not, um, there's not a ton of like crazy graphics or things that are flying in and out.

00:33:00.800 --> 00:33:04.440

<v Katie>It really is much more about them and about the conversations that they're having

00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.000

<v Katie>in the, and some nods to the physical space behind them.

00:33:07.120 --> 00:33:11.000

<v Katie>So I think it's important to think through.

00:33:11.140 --> 00:33:13.440

<v Katie>I know we're obviously very YouTube first.

00:33:13.600 --> 00:33:16.320

<v Katie>We obviously think that YouTube is a huge, amazing platform,

00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:20.880

<v Katie>but that doesn't mean that we are not still thinking about people who are not

00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.240

<v Katie>YouTube people who want to just listen out on their favorite podcast player

00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.600

<v Katie>and they want to be doing it in X, Y, Z, different location.

00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:31.800

<v Katie>You need to be thinking about both those audiences if you are wanting to be a podcast.

00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.000

<v Katie>And I think they do a really great job of both of them.

00:33:34.780 --> 00:33:38.920

<v Doc>I think one thing that's,

00:33:40.399 --> 00:33:48.659

<v Doc>sort of big too is again when you're starting out it's easy to look out outward and try to,

00:33:49.879 --> 00:33:53.999

<v Doc>chase this product that somebody else is making it's like i kind of want to

00:33:53.999 --> 00:34:03.019

<v Doc>do that i i find that all of my sports related people all are trying to overdo it they.

00:34:03.019 --> 00:34:04.219

<v Katie>Just people love a graphic

00:34:04.219 --> 00:34:06.959

<v Doc>Well it's not that it's not just

00:34:06.959 --> 00:34:10.299

<v Doc>that they're watching they want to like espn and

00:34:10.299 --> 00:34:13.599

<v Doc>fox and so those things have just mad massive

00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.439

<v Doc>budgets you know what i'm saying yeah so there

00:34:17.439 --> 00:34:20.519

<v Doc>is a way okay um i'm laughing

00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.339

<v Doc>at marshall in the chat you know talking about blasphemy on

00:34:23.339 --> 00:34:26.859

<v Doc>the design work i'll use some examples uh tiffany

00:34:26.859 --> 00:34:30.319

<v Doc>um calvin klein yeah right

00:34:30.319 --> 00:34:34.879

<v Doc>like they they excel supreme excel

00:34:34.879 --> 00:34:38.819

<v Doc>at simplicity but like

00:34:38.819 --> 00:34:45.699

<v Doc>it became the thing right while versace whole opposite end of the spectrum right

00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:50.059

<v Doc>but if you take those brands tiffany that's all you ever have is that one little

00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:55.339

<v Doc>tiny tiffany and co times roman stretched out just like, oh, it's just,

00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.919

<v Doc>it's something very quintessential about that.

00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:01.919

<v Doc>So speaking of stripping away all of that,

00:35:02.359 --> 00:35:05.959

<v Doc>there was a point where MTV was struggling

00:35:05.959 --> 00:35:08.959

<v Doc>because they felt that all the music

00:35:08.959 --> 00:35:14.379

<v Doc>videos were starting to get a little samesy and they

00:35:14.379 --> 00:35:20.919

<v Doc>felt that they were losing their audience and somebody said what if we did basically

00:35:20.919 --> 00:35:29.319

<v Doc>rehearsals but live in front of a studio audience and everybody's like this

00:35:29.319 --> 00:35:33.019

<v Doc>is the dumbest idea I ever heard and then.

00:35:33.879 --> 00:35:41.419

<v Doc>One of the last great things to ever happen Kurt Cobain sits down with a guitar and.

00:35:43.730 --> 00:35:51.530

<v Doc>I'm so happy because today I found my friends there in my head.

00:35:51.770 --> 00:35:57.190

<v Doc>The first time you heard that without all of the do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, right? Yeah.

00:35:57.370 --> 00:36:04.410

<v Doc>When you hear that and see how much pain that dude was in, I think that episode

00:36:04.410 --> 00:36:10.430

<v Doc>of Unplugged was the first time I knew for a fact that we were fixing to lose that dude.

00:36:10.690 --> 00:36:10.850

<v Speaker2>Yeah.

00:36:11.530 --> 00:36:17.110

<v Doc>Because you saw the rawness you saw the pain you saw it without the overproduction,

00:36:17.850 --> 00:36:25.010

<v Doc>and i think i fell strangely enough kid from the hood fell in love with nirvana on unplugged,

00:36:25.610 --> 00:36:27.710

<v Doc>because i actually got to hear

00:36:27.710 --> 00:36:33.710

<v Doc>the lyrics and vice versa when they did you know limp biscuit and jay-z,

00:36:34.270 --> 00:36:38.010

<v Doc>kids not from the hood fell in love with jay-z because they got a chance to

00:36:38.010 --> 00:36:48.130

<v Doc>hear the lyrics they got a chance to hear the whole sort of breakdown right and you can sometimes,

00:36:49.030 --> 00:36:54.230

<v Doc>build a tighter stronger audience when you stop tripping and just let it be

00:36:54.230 --> 00:36:57.930

<v Doc>not to coin the Beatles phrase in front of Katie wow.

00:36:57.930 --> 00:36:59.910

<v Katie>From Nirvana to the Beatles I love it

00:36:59.910 --> 00:37:03.310

<v Doc>I do the music is my swing like sometimes

00:37:03.310 --> 00:37:06.750

<v Doc>you just gotta let it be right so i think

00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:09.490

<v Doc>again like i think the overarching theme of

00:37:09.490 --> 00:37:12.650

<v Doc>this show is don't overthink it and be

00:37:12.650 --> 00:37:18.770

<v Doc>willing to experiment and try some things and you know we we met uh and at kit

00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:24.570

<v Doc>studios but her tiny little experiments you know i got my book collection from

00:37:24.570 --> 00:37:28.370

<v Doc>kit and so i've been messing with tiny little experiments and i love the concept

00:37:28.370 --> 00:37:30.650

<v Doc>Because I think that's how the best things happen.

00:37:30.870 --> 00:37:33.090

<v Doc>You know, they all happen from these tiny little experiments.

00:37:33.470 --> 00:37:38.050

<v Katie>Yeah, tiny little experiments. And I think what is particularly cool about this

00:37:38.050 --> 00:37:43.630

<v Katie>show and about Tony and Ryan's podcast, as well as about the community that

00:37:43.630 --> 00:37:45.830

<v Katie>ECHEM has built as well, is that...

00:37:46.962 --> 00:37:54.802

<v Katie>The intentionality and the overthinking is on what experience they're creating

00:37:54.802 --> 00:38:02.882

<v Katie>for their community and is not on the production of the show and the graphics

00:38:02.882 --> 00:38:04.642

<v Katie>and how they feel, right?

00:38:04.642 --> 00:38:12.102

<v Katie>So it's very clear from being a fan of this show that everything that they and

00:38:12.102 --> 00:38:16.482

<v Katie>their team is doing, and they have a team, they have a budget,

00:38:16.582 --> 00:38:17.662

<v Katie>they are full-time podcasters.

00:38:17.762 --> 00:38:20.062

<v Katie>So this is not a small show.

00:38:20.202 --> 00:38:25.722

<v Katie>This is not something that you just started. It has a life to it and it's grown over the years.

00:38:25.862 --> 00:38:31.662

<v Katie>But they care more about what the experience is like for their people,

00:38:31.822 --> 00:38:37.602

<v Katie>where they're at. they care more about what the stories are and the storytelling.

00:38:37.842 --> 00:38:41.362

<v Katie>They are planning and thinking through that to the nth degree,

00:38:41.362 --> 00:38:47.862

<v Katie>but they are not worried about what their brand color looks like in their background

00:38:47.862 --> 00:38:50.402

<v Katie>and the sliding in graphic that comes in.

00:38:50.582 --> 00:38:55.682

<v Katie>Because to them, what matters most is the storytelling and is in bringing their

00:38:55.682 --> 00:39:00.922

<v Katie>community together and creating these moments that are relatable and funny and

00:39:00.922 --> 00:39:04.662

<v Katie>kind of let people forget about any of the problems that they have in their

00:39:04.662 --> 00:39:06.322

<v Katie>life and just spend time together,

00:39:06.502 --> 00:39:08.502

<v Katie>right? So that is their focus.

00:39:08.702 --> 00:39:13.862

<v Katie>So whatever is your show is about or, you know, the kind of community that you're

00:39:13.862 --> 00:39:16.182

<v Katie>building, like, that's what you should be overthinking.

00:39:16.322 --> 00:39:18.942

<v Katie>If you want to overthink, that's what you need to be overthinking about.

00:39:19.082 --> 00:39:23.302

<v Katie>And the rest of it can, you know, the rest of it you can let go of.

00:39:23.442 --> 00:39:28.222

<v Katie>Like, The rest of it is okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be silly.

00:39:28.582 --> 00:39:33.642

<v Katie>It's okay. Like you can have any different kind of vibe that you want, you know, on the show.

00:39:33.742 --> 00:39:37.362

<v Katie>But I think, yeah, I think overthinking about some of the

00:39:38.654 --> 00:39:43.474

<v Katie>Those pieces, not to say branding isn't important, it is, but I think what matters

00:39:43.474 --> 00:39:45.174

<v Katie>more is really thinking through, like,

00:39:45.354 --> 00:39:51.734

<v Katie>what value are you creating for your community and not kind of all of those

00:39:51.734 --> 00:39:54.094

<v Katie>smaller details that really can evolve.

00:39:54.274 --> 00:39:57.554

<v Katie>And as Doc was saying, like, you can test and change any of them.

00:39:57.634 --> 00:39:59.414

<v Katie>We've changed how the flow looks.

00:39:59.594 --> 00:40:02.714

<v Katie>You know, poor Marshall. Speaking of Marshall, we've changed how the flow looks

00:40:02.714 --> 00:40:05.634

<v Katie>like 150 times since we launched this show.

00:40:07.034 --> 00:40:10.994

<v Katie>We've gotten rid of a lot of different graphics. We've changed up the colors.

00:40:10.994 --> 00:40:16.834

<v Katie>We've changed up the overall vibe and the logo and a whole bunch of things in between.

00:40:17.514 --> 00:40:21.994

<v Katie>It hasn't really changed the overall goal of the show or the mission that we

00:40:21.994 --> 00:40:27.114

<v Katie>have for and what we're trying to do to reach and delight our audience.

00:40:27.114 --> 00:40:29.674

<v Katie>But we've made tons of changes.

00:40:30.694 --> 00:40:34.814

<v Katie>Probably we'll continue to make tons of changes in that area. I think it...

00:40:34.814 --> 00:40:40.814

<v Doc>You mentioned it before about their ability to connect, whether you're watching or listening.

00:40:42.274 --> 00:40:49.654

<v Doc>And, you know, the damn kids basically stealing our word and making it popular again is the whole vibe.

00:40:49.954 --> 00:40:52.634

<v Doc>Yeah. But you're right.

00:40:52.774 --> 00:40:57.914

<v Doc>I mean, I guess you and I have the same situation. and so do Lou and I.

00:40:58.034 --> 00:41:03.514

<v Doc>The idea of having two best friends that are just sitting around talking about

00:41:03.514 --> 00:41:07.454

<v Doc>the thing that they're interested in or the thing that they're both working

00:41:07.454 --> 00:41:09.974

<v Doc>towards or whatever, that part is there.

00:41:10.114 --> 00:41:13.874

<v Doc>And I know people will say, well, what if I do the show by myself?

00:41:14.534 --> 00:41:16.174

<v Doc>You can still have that.

00:41:17.334 --> 00:41:24.354

<v Doc>Because the way that I did it when I was doing a show by myself is you pick

00:41:24.354 --> 00:41:28.214

<v Doc>different people in the audience to talk to in that particular episode.

00:41:29.594 --> 00:41:35.214

<v Doc>So when I record one of my videos that I'm doing now,

00:41:36.494 --> 00:41:41.834

<v Doc>sometimes I have a software that I'm showing or a tool that I'm showing or something

00:41:41.834 --> 00:41:48.194

<v Doc>of that nature, but I often think about who is it that can use this the most, right?

00:41:48.194 --> 00:41:50.514

<v Doc>Who is it in my LGL crew?

00:41:50.734 --> 00:41:56.094

<v Doc>And I make like I'm talking to them. because then it feels...

00:41:57.118 --> 00:42:00.678

<v Doc>Like you're having a conversation with a friend, the person who's listening,

00:42:00.998 --> 00:42:03.958

<v Doc>even if it wasn't meant for them, they'll still hear it.

00:42:04.178 --> 00:42:08.558

<v Doc>And I do often at the end say, I don't know who needs to hear this,

00:42:08.698 --> 00:42:12.698

<v Doc>but, and then if I know who it was, I'll actually say their name because I'm

00:42:12.698 --> 00:42:13.898

<v Doc>like, okay, technically I

00:42:13.898 --> 00:42:17.118

<v Doc>was talking to Paul, but the rest of y'all could listen to, right? Right.

00:42:17.358 --> 00:42:24.318

<v Doc>Or the other day I did want to not mention what Marianne said about like the three minute podcast,

00:42:24.458 --> 00:42:29.998

<v Doc>because I think that was so enlightening to me that the the labeling around

00:42:29.998 --> 00:42:36.798

<v Doc>things can be almost gatekeepy sometimes because the labels got people, you know, tripping.

00:42:36.798 --> 00:42:39.558

<v Doc>And it ain't her fault that she didn't know that it's not a

00:42:39.558 --> 00:42:42.338

<v Doc>bad thing it means that the community is starting

00:42:42.338 --> 00:42:45.338

<v Doc>to get a little bit too uh mean about it

00:42:45.338 --> 00:42:48.378

<v Doc>that you know you no one she didn't assume that

00:42:48.378 --> 00:42:51.518

<v Doc>you can make a 10-minute podcast right i think that that says

00:42:51.518 --> 00:42:54.658

<v Doc>more about the the art the space and where

00:42:54.658 --> 00:42:58.098

<v Doc>it's going and the mislabeling of things or now

00:42:58.098 --> 00:43:02.138

<v Doc>you know me i've always said i struggle with people

00:43:02.138 --> 00:43:05.198

<v Doc>trying to tell people what a podcast is and what a podcast isn't

00:43:05.198 --> 00:43:08.058

<v Doc>because a podcast isn't anything it's just

00:43:08.058 --> 00:43:11.358

<v Doc>a stupid name that was attached to a show in

00:43:11.358 --> 00:43:14.298

<v Doc>any type of show that you do can be called

00:43:14.298 --> 00:43:17.398

<v Doc>the podcast you just need to put the word podcast in

00:43:17.398 --> 00:43:21.278

<v Doc>it yeah that's it that's all you really need to do it has nothing to do with

00:43:21.278 --> 00:43:25.858

<v Doc>the rss feed anymore it has nothing to do with whether it's audio or video or

00:43:25.858 --> 00:43:29.558

<v Doc>both it could be anything a podcast could be whatever the heck it wants to be

00:43:29.558 --> 00:43:35.278

<v Doc>it's like vanilla cream vanilla cream is vanilla cream until it's buttercream,

00:43:35.618 --> 00:43:42.738

<v Doc>until it's rum raisin or German chocolate or whatever the heck you mix into it or bechamel, right?

00:43:43.198 --> 00:43:49.798

<v Doc>And so I love the idea of the two friends doing their thing,

00:43:49.918 --> 00:43:53.178

<v Doc>but if you're doing it by yourself, you can still make that happen.

00:43:53.258 --> 00:43:56.998

<v Doc>And a lot of it has to do with segue, call back to the beginning,

00:43:57.458 --> 00:44:02.118

<v Doc>understanding your community, even if you're starting with a community of one

00:44:02.118 --> 00:44:06.218

<v Doc>because for Tony and Ryan to be where they are today,

00:44:06.818 --> 00:44:13.338

<v Doc>they started with a community of one somebody it could have been their friend

00:44:13.338 --> 00:44:15.758

<v Doc>they were probably just literally talking.

00:44:15.758 --> 00:44:17.338

<v Katie>To each other too they may have

00:44:17.338 --> 00:44:20.578

<v Doc>Started literally yeah correct

00:44:20.578 --> 00:44:23.458

<v Doc>correct and I think that's the thing because I think people

00:44:23.458 --> 00:44:27.198

<v Doc>like well they have a big community so it's easy right everybody started

00:44:27.198 --> 00:44:31.438

<v Doc>at nothing and that is really hard to understand that like all the successful

00:44:31.438 --> 00:44:36.778

<v Doc>people in the world started out pissing in their diaper too bro like you really

00:44:36.778 --> 00:44:41.498

<v Doc>got to get over that concept that there's some kind of special thing that these

00:44:41.498 --> 00:44:45.018

<v Doc>people have because they don't they just don't.

00:44:45.018 --> 00:44:47.358

<v Katie>Yeah and i i do think it is like

00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:51.740

<v Katie>important for people to understand, like, I think you're right.

00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:58.520

<v Katie>Like the term podcast has, has become this like crazy thing and everyone assigns

00:44:58.520 --> 00:45:02.140

<v Katie>like a different definition to it, depending on where they're coming from and

00:45:02.140 --> 00:45:04.420

<v Katie>their age and how long they've been in the industry and how long they've been

00:45:04.420 --> 00:45:06.040

<v Katie>a podcaster or whether they're brand new.

00:45:06.500 --> 00:45:13.580

<v Katie>And like the, I don't know, the more that I do it, the more that I realize that it like, again,

00:45:13.700 --> 00:45:17.920

<v Katie>it really goes back to like understanding what it is you want to create and

00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.700

<v Katie>understanding who your community is and the, and where,

00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:25.960

<v Katie>you know, where you want to put the content to engage and connect with them.

00:45:26.080 --> 00:45:31.280

<v Katie>Like I've become very aware that my podcast really is way more of a live show.

00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:36.720

<v Katie>It also the, it echoes out on podcast platforms and I put it out there,

00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:39.560

<v Katie>you know, every week, but, but I have maybe

00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.940

<v Katie>Seven people that listen out on the podcast, like players, it's there if they

00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.980

<v Katie>want to, but my main audience joins me on YouTube.

00:45:48.240 --> 00:45:52.820

<v Katie>And so my focus then is on YouTube. I try my best to make sure that we're not

00:45:52.820 --> 00:45:55.420

<v Katie>saying or doing anything that would antagonize someone listening.

00:45:55.620 --> 00:45:58.860

<v Katie>But my focus is where my community is, which is on YouTube.

00:45:59.100 --> 00:46:02.940

<v Katie>If like, and if I was, if, if those numbers were the other way around and I

00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:07.120

<v Katie>had this huge audience that loved listening to me, then I would think about that.

00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:11.380

<v Katie>I would think carefully about like how I'm creating the content that way so

00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:16.440

<v Katie>that I'm not, you know, I'm going where my community is and community lives

00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:17.440

<v Katie>and engaging with them that way.

00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:20.020

<v Katie>So I think it's important to think through that.

00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.220

<v Katie>And again, I wanted to bring this particular podcast to you

00:46:23.220 --> 00:46:30.140

<v Katie>all as just a great example because they really do a fantastic job of making

00:46:30.140 --> 00:46:41.020

<v Katie>a a conversational podcast into a club experience where it feels like you can be friends with them.

00:46:41.260 --> 00:46:45.000

<v Katie>It feels like you can be part of the experience. You can contribute to it.

00:46:45.120 --> 00:46:50.760

<v Katie>They have made it more than a show. It is an entire experience.

00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.920

<v Katie>And I really think that these days that's what's going to make a big difference

00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:59.160

<v Katie>in the podcasting spaces is not the how you design it or what platforms you're

00:46:59.160 --> 00:47:00.620

<v Katie>using or where it's sitting.

00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:04.160

<v Katie>It's really understanding what you want to do. And it doesn't

00:47:04.824 --> 00:47:09.284

<v Katie>Have to be, like as Doc said, it doesn't have to be a specific amount of time.

00:47:09.444 --> 00:47:10.944

<v Katie>It doesn't have to be fun either.

00:47:11.164 --> 00:47:14.824

<v Katie>Like I know a lot of the examples that we show and share are like silly and

00:47:14.824 --> 00:47:18.324

<v Katie>funny and the, you know, and the hosts that we, we put up are like,

00:47:18.464 --> 00:47:21.544

<v Katie>you know, super laid, super laid back.

00:47:21.724 --> 00:47:25.404

<v Katie>But that doesn't like, if you are like a doctor or a lawyer,

00:47:25.404 --> 00:47:28.084

<v Katie>or, you know, you're talking about something like really serious,

00:47:28.304 --> 00:47:32.044

<v Katie>like maybe you're talking about mental health or trauma, Like you,

00:47:32.084 --> 00:47:35.184

<v Katie>you can still be authentically yourself.

00:47:35.424 --> 00:47:39.324

<v Katie>You can still create an incredible community, even if you are not silly or fun

00:47:39.324 --> 00:47:41.804

<v Katie>or, you know, or, or taking that tactic.

00:47:41.964 --> 00:47:46.544

<v Katie>I think what's important is focusing on what you want to create and the community

00:47:46.544 --> 00:47:48.164

<v Katie>that you're building and want to grow.

00:47:49.304 --> 00:47:51.384

<v Katie>Oh yeah. You know, I think it really matters.

00:47:51.384 --> 00:47:56.024

<v Doc>My favorite show right now always has been actually for about three years is Diary of a CEO.

00:47:56.364 --> 00:48:00.204

<v Doc>And there's nothing funny about that. Right? Yeah. Sometimes I'm yelling at

00:48:00.204 --> 00:48:03.584

<v Doc>the guests that he brings on because I'm like, oh, this person is an absolute quack.

00:48:03.704 --> 00:48:06.424

<v Doc>But other times they're just really good. Right.

00:48:06.704 --> 00:48:10.084

<v Doc>And he does. Everybody gives him crap because he brings on these various different

00:48:10.084 --> 00:48:12.344

<v Doc>medical people because he's trying to figure his health out.

00:48:12.764 --> 00:48:17.044

<v Doc>But he also brings on athletes and, you know, CEOs, actually,

00:48:17.264 --> 00:48:19.664

<v Doc>you know, people who wrote a book, whatever the case may be.

00:48:19.844 --> 00:48:21.684

<v Doc>So I love that particular show.

00:48:21.864 --> 00:48:24.024

<v Doc>And I just love the entire vibe about the show.

00:48:24.424 --> 00:48:28.504

<v Doc>Yeah. Right. And he's sitting there asking the person the things that we probably

00:48:28.504 --> 00:48:30.824

<v Doc>would ask that person if we could get to that person.

00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:35.644

<v Doc>So you're right. It doesn't have to be funny. You mentioned something about,

00:48:35.644 --> 00:48:42.404

<v Doc>you know, making sure that you have it good for the video watcher and for the listener.

00:48:42.424 --> 00:48:47.344

<v Doc>I want to say that that's a choice because do you know of a restaurant that

00:48:47.344 --> 00:48:49.604

<v Doc>is off the chain that does not do takeout?

00:48:50.520 --> 00:48:52.840

<v Katie>Yeah, definitely. I can name quite a few.

00:48:53.080 --> 00:48:57.000

<v Doc>Yeah, because some food ain't good, take out. And so if I let you take this

00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:02.400

<v Doc>out, you're not going to get the experience and your ass could be all up on Yelp with the one star.

00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:08.500

<v Doc>So if you make a show that's video only, lean into it, pimp, lean into it.

00:49:08.640 --> 00:49:14.300

<v Doc>And you might put it on the audio things just so that people can find it, which is fine.

00:49:14.300 --> 00:49:17.320

<v Doc>But when they say well you know i i see

00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.040

<v Doc>the the podcast and you're only talking to the

00:49:20.040 --> 00:49:22.860

<v Doc>people on youtube yeah mofo because that's where

00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:25.600

<v Doc>the party at like come through right and if

00:49:25.600 --> 00:49:28.600

<v Doc>you can't cool like i think it's fine to

00:49:28.600 --> 00:49:31.360

<v Doc>be like this is an audio only show or this

00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:34.920

<v Doc>is a video only show yeah the funny thing about it all the

00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.740

<v Doc>audio people who are hating video pockets right now because they look

00:49:37.740 --> 00:49:40.600

<v Doc>funny they're all like i'm never making

00:49:40.600 --> 00:49:43.360

<v Doc>a video and they're like adamant about it and it's funny

00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:46.180

<v Doc>to me because I'm like y'all are losing it

00:49:46.180 --> 00:49:49.120

<v Doc>but whatever do you Pam you're gonna keep saying that

00:49:49.120 --> 00:49:51.880

<v Doc>until YouTube grows three times as big

00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:55.440

<v Doc>as they are right now in the next two years and then you have no choice but

00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:00.060

<v Doc>you know it's okay if you really only want to be one or the other it's absolutely

00:50:00.060 --> 00:50:03.100

<v Doc>fine you just got to lean into it and you got to live with your decision it's

00:50:03.100 --> 00:50:09.840

<v Doc>your decision I definitely know that a lot of my stuff wouldn't be good as audio

00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:11.540

<v Doc>because I'm showing you something.

00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:15.520

<v Doc>And when I pop on the game in the car because I'm in traffic,

00:50:15.640 --> 00:50:19.380

<v Doc>get out and make it home, I know that listening to the football or the football

00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:21.480

<v Doc>game on ESPN radio sucks.

00:50:22.160 --> 00:50:27.660

<v Doc>But at least I can hear something. Yeah. And as soon as I can get to it, TV is on.

00:50:28.140 --> 00:50:33.360

<v Doc>Or if we're at, you know, Hoppies and everybody's making noise and I can't hear

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:37.320

<v Doc>what the commentators are saying, nothing to do with it. I can still see the game.

00:50:37.700 --> 00:50:41.060

<v Doc>Like, I still know what's going on. And many occasions you're sitting in the

00:50:41.060 --> 00:50:43.800

<v Doc>airport bar somewhere and you're like watching a game.

00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.360

<v Doc>You can't hear nothing, but you still are all up in there. So yeah,

00:50:47.945 --> 00:50:51.245

<v Doc>Don't put weird constraints on yourself if it's not you.

00:50:52.405 --> 00:50:58.045

<v Katie>Yeah, and I will say, again, lessons from other shows that are out there.

00:50:58.785 --> 00:51:04.945

<v Katie>I have seen a number of quote-unquote audio-only podcasts experiment with video

00:51:04.945 --> 00:51:11.245

<v Katie>in clever and creative ways. That's not just, I'm going to move my entire podcast over to video.

00:51:11.445 --> 00:51:17.065

<v Katie>And I think, again, it really goes back to thinking through what kind of experience are you creating.

00:51:17.065 --> 00:51:24.565

<v Katie>It is not going to work to merely put your audio-only podcast up on YouTube

00:51:24.565 --> 00:51:30.625

<v Katie>and just have it as a listening thing because YouTube is a visual video-first platform, right?

00:51:30.625 --> 00:51:35.665

<v Katie>So, but you can like, and again, Tony and Ryan is a great example of this.

00:51:35.825 --> 00:51:40.805

<v Katie>Tony and Ryan do often, they will do like live streams for their community where

00:51:40.805 --> 00:51:44.565

<v Katie>they're all like crafting together or they're, you know,

00:51:44.665 --> 00:51:48.145

<v Katie>they're playing a game together or they're doing something that is a,

00:51:48.145 --> 00:51:52.645

<v Katie>is a, a one-off experience that is an extension of the show,

00:51:52.765 --> 00:51:54.285

<v Katie>but is not the show itself. Right.

00:51:54.445 --> 00:51:58.605

<v Katie>So, so you're giving people a reason to actually want to participate in that,

00:51:59.185 --> 00:52:01.205

<v Katie>Uh, in that experience. Right.

00:52:01.305 --> 00:52:04.125

<v Katie>So like, so you can create, you can, you can do that.

00:52:04.245 --> 00:52:06.825

<v Katie>Morbid is another one of my favorite shows, a true crime podcast.

00:52:07.225 --> 00:52:12.725

<v Katie>And they, you know, they have not fully moved all the way over to video for all of their episodes.

00:52:12.905 --> 00:52:19.005

<v Katie>They're an audio first podcast, but they have a listeners, listener tales series

00:52:19.005 --> 00:52:22.985

<v Katie>where every now and then they will, they will take stories from their listeners.

00:52:23.285 --> 00:52:27.805

<v Katie>And for those episodes, they are now putting those ones up on YouTube and they

00:52:27.805 --> 00:52:32.045

<v Katie>have like, they dress up in like, you know, fun, like Halloween kind of costumes.

00:52:32.205 --> 00:52:35.285

<v Katie>There's a different theme every episode that they do. So they've figured out

00:52:35.285 --> 00:52:39.565

<v Katie>that, that for their audience and for what they're trying to build for their

00:52:39.565 --> 00:52:44.385

<v Katie>community, it makes way more sense for just that one part of their show to be

00:52:44.385 --> 00:52:45.345

<v Katie>visual and to be on YouTube.

00:52:45.465 --> 00:52:48.885

<v Katie>They're creating an experience that makes sense for that platform.

00:52:49.085 --> 00:52:54.145

<v Katie>So Mike's question about if you're focus is on audio, does that not go to benefit

00:52:54.145 --> 00:52:59.545

<v Katie>both audiences? Or does that focus on audio come at a cost needed to focus on YouTube?

00:53:00.225 --> 00:53:04.685

<v Katie>I think what you need to remember is that they are very different platforms.

00:53:04.685 --> 00:53:10.045

<v Katie>So you can have an instance where you have a show, like ours is a good example of this, right?

00:53:10.165 --> 00:53:14.585

<v Katie>Where we are creating video first and we can easily pull the audio out and the

00:53:14.585 --> 00:53:17.905

<v Katie>people who are experiencing audio will have a great experience.

00:53:18.085 --> 00:53:21.665

<v Katie>They're not going to have the same experience as the people who are watching

00:53:21.665 --> 00:53:24.425

<v Katie>us live on YouTube and are able to contribute to the conversation.

00:53:25.345 --> 00:53:29.805

<v Katie>And likewise, if we were audio only, it would be way harder for us to backtrack

00:53:29.805 --> 00:53:33.325

<v Katie>and create, take that content and make it into video content.

00:53:33.345 --> 00:53:34.945

<v Katie>So I think you really need to think through...

00:53:35.981 --> 00:53:40.221

<v Katie>Um, I think you really need to think through like what, what experience you want to create.

00:53:40.381 --> 00:53:44.881

<v Katie>So, and there's no wrong as doc was saying, like, it's okay to be YouTube only.

00:53:45.021 --> 00:53:47.361

<v Katie>It's okay to be audio only. It's okay.

00:53:47.621 --> 00:53:50.741

<v Katie>Even like down there, like if you've built an amazing audience and it's audio

00:53:50.741 --> 00:53:54.121

<v Katie>only, and you want nothing to do with YouTube, that's totally fine.

00:53:54.121 --> 00:53:57.301

<v Katie>I like you, you need to figure out what it is that you want,

00:53:57.401 --> 00:53:57.961

<v Doc>But it's fine.

00:53:58.541 --> 00:54:03.181

<v Katie>It's a bad decision. If what you want to do it, like if you want crazy growth,

00:54:03.281 --> 00:54:05.981

<v Katie>I don't know. I think it's just a different decision.

00:54:06.241 --> 00:54:07.841

<v Doc>It depends on what you want.

00:54:08.041 --> 00:54:09.381

<v Katie>You might have like an incredible.

00:54:09.601 --> 00:54:14.281

<v Doc>You're right. I just say that to be jokey. There's a lot of growth on YouTube.

00:54:14.281 --> 00:54:16.801

<v Katie>Certainly, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision.

00:54:16.961 --> 00:54:17.841

<v Katie>It might be the right decision.

00:54:17.841 --> 00:54:18.841

<v Doc>And you might not want to grow.

00:54:19.221 --> 00:54:20.061

<v Katie>Yeah, you might not want to grow.

00:54:20.061 --> 00:54:24.421

<v Doc>Some people don't realize that because I have a pushback with Paul C.

00:54:24.421 --> 00:54:26.841

<v Katie>Your audience might be older and never want to be on YouTube.

00:54:27.121 --> 00:54:31.081

<v Katie>Maybe your audience are people who like are literally only ever in their cars

00:54:31.081 --> 00:54:34.541

<v Katie>or maybe they're like, you know, there are people who are on the go and are

00:54:34.541 --> 00:54:37.241

<v Katie>not going to, I don't know, like there's, there might be reasons for it. I don't.

00:54:37.746 --> 00:54:41.106

<v Doc>I don't know what that reason is, but I'm going to let you live this fantasy.

00:54:42.526 --> 00:54:48.166

<v Doc>So Paul C., the opposite Paul, UK Paul, he's like, you do this and then you

00:54:48.166 --> 00:54:50.646

<v Doc>can grow the channel bigger or whatever. And I'm like, I kind of don't want

00:54:50.646 --> 00:54:51.566

<v Doc>to grow the channel bigger.

00:54:52.986 --> 00:54:57.646

<v Doc>I like where I'm at. I know what my purpose is. I know where I'm going. I know the whole idea.

00:54:58.486 --> 00:55:01.766

<v Doc>But the idea, the only reason why I want to plaque is I just want to plaque

00:55:01.766 --> 00:55:03.266

<v Doc>people when they have something stupid to say.

00:55:03.266 --> 00:55:06.126

<v Doc>Other than that like it really doesn't matter to me

00:55:06.126 --> 00:55:08.966

<v Doc>that you know there's 200,000 people are watching or whatever

00:55:08.966 --> 00:55:12.386

<v Doc>because I think that could also change the vibe of the community right

00:55:12.386 --> 00:55:15.526

<v Doc>now I like the fact that I know every single person in

00:55:15.526 --> 00:55:20.226

<v Doc>my community right like I have some sort of connection to each and every single

00:55:20.226 --> 00:55:24.686

<v Doc>one of them and uh you know can remember their birthdays or what's going on

00:55:24.686 --> 00:55:27.406

<v Doc>in their life or whatever and I think that will become harder as it becomes

00:55:27.406 --> 00:55:31.926

<v Doc>bigger I like the whole boutique thing of it it's like you know there's a restaurant

00:55:31.926 --> 00:55:33.886

<v Doc>in your town again And I don't know why. Maybe I'm hungry.

00:55:34.066 --> 00:55:37.086

<v Doc>There's a restaurant in your town where everybody says, if you guys had a bigger

00:55:37.086 --> 00:55:38.686

<v Doc>spot, this place would be off the chain.

00:55:38.806 --> 00:55:43.426

<v Doc>But that person could not cook at the level that they cook right now if they were bigger.

00:55:43.606 --> 00:55:51.646

<v Doc>They have to remain small in order to put out the level of quality that they want.

00:55:51.946 --> 00:55:57.726

<v Doc>And I will say, again, you're 100% correct on Mike's point because I look at

00:55:57.726 --> 00:55:59.506

<v Doc>Conan and I look at SmartList.

00:55:59.806 --> 00:56:02.506

<v Doc>There's no reason for there to be a video version of their shows.

00:56:02.666 --> 00:56:08.226

<v Doc>But there is and all that video is is a camera in the studio while they're recording

00:56:08.226 --> 00:56:13.786

<v Doc>the audio side of it yeah which is funny because all of them come from the video

00:56:13.786 --> 00:56:15.406

<v Doc>production world background.

00:56:16.106 --> 00:56:19.286

<v Doc>Right so you know you got jason basement bateman

00:56:19.286 --> 00:56:22.646

<v Doc>will ferrell and sean haynes like conan and brian like

00:56:22.646 --> 00:56:27.466

<v Doc>and what will be eventually the stephen colbert show like all of the above there's

00:56:27.466 --> 00:56:33.266

<v Doc>even oprah like her her new podcast it has no reason to be a video podcast but

00:56:33.266 --> 00:56:38.026

<v Doc>it's there because it's oatmeal chilling in her house in maui flying people

00:56:38.026 --> 00:56:39.446

<v Doc>out to come talk story with her,

00:56:39.952 --> 00:56:41.412

<v Doc>And it is at a table.

00:56:41.592 --> 00:56:47.272

<v Katie>The cool thing to note is that all of those people are all talent.

00:56:47.512 --> 00:56:54.052

<v Katie>So, like, they have been in video production environments, but none of them are video producers.

00:56:54.052 --> 00:56:57.652

<v Katie>So, like, if you had a behind-the-scenes video producer person,

00:56:57.652 --> 00:57:02.812

<v Katie>they would struggle with the content, but their show would be highly produced, right?

00:57:02.812 --> 00:57:10.192

<v Katie>Whereas the Oprahs and the famous talent people, they're great at storytelling, at sharing.

00:57:10.532 --> 00:57:15.252

<v Katie>That is their background and their passion. So it's just good to remember as

00:57:15.252 --> 00:57:19.012

<v Katie>you're watching or listening to some of these different shows out there that

00:57:19.012 --> 00:57:23.052

<v Katie>there's a ton of stuff that you can pull from it for your own needs.

00:57:23.052 --> 00:57:28.272

<v Katie>But it's good to also remember where they came from, what kind of budget they have.

00:57:29.032 --> 00:57:33.892

<v Katie>Don't just pull and steal. So we called this show, Steal This Show,

00:57:34.032 --> 00:57:34.912

<v Katie>talking about Tony and Ryan.

00:57:35.172 --> 00:57:38.292

<v Katie>Don't just steal everything as is.

00:57:38.852 --> 00:57:43.152

<v Katie>Think about what makes it work and what you really like about it and how you

00:57:43.152 --> 00:57:51.052

<v Katie>can apply that underlaying segment or thing to your show to make your show better.

00:57:51.252 --> 00:57:53.312

<v Katie>So hopefully it's helpful.

00:57:54.032 --> 00:57:58.552

<v Katie>And there are a ton of shows out there. So again, if Tony and Ryan is not your show, totally fine.

00:57:58.552 --> 00:58:03.412

<v Katie>But I do think like listening to shows, even in completely different genres

00:58:03.412 --> 00:58:07.732

<v Katie>than what you're trying to create is a really great way to figure out what could

00:58:07.732 --> 00:58:10.952

<v Katie>work for you and what, you know, what might be something that would make a big

00:58:10.952 --> 00:58:12.332

<v Katie>difference in the content you're creating.

00:58:13.752 --> 00:58:18.032

<v Doc>I do like the concept of sort of studying what, you know, the other guys are

00:58:18.032 --> 00:58:21.552

<v Doc>doing and picking up little notes here and there, which is the reason why I

00:58:21.552 --> 00:58:24.012

<v Doc>tell my people all the time, if you're going to watch YouTube,

00:58:24.172 --> 00:58:24.972

<v Doc>you got to study YouTube.

00:58:25.432 --> 00:58:28.352

<v Doc>And I'm looking at all the various things that you could pick up, whatever.

00:58:28.552 --> 00:58:33.452

<v Doc>I look at things from SmartList or even Tony and Ryan.

00:58:33.552 --> 00:58:36.372

<v Doc>I was like, oh, that'd be a good way to add, you know, a little extra something

00:58:36.372 --> 00:58:37.872

<v Doc>to the show. So fully understood.

00:58:38.932 --> 00:58:43.992

<v Katie>I love it. I love it. Well, thanks for joining me for this conversation.

00:58:44.172 --> 00:58:46.932

<v Katie>Thanks to everyone for hanging out with us. And again, a reminder,

00:58:47.612 --> 00:58:54.312

<v Katie>we are looking for a flow writer to join us live on our episode recording next week.

00:58:54.312 --> 00:58:59.512

<v Katie>So if that's you, email us flow at ecamm.com or swing over to flow.ecamm.com

00:58:59.512 --> 00:59:02.572

<v Katie>where you can sign up for our newsletter, leave us a voicemail,

00:59:02.832 --> 00:59:04.912

<v Katie>tell us you want to be a guest, all that fun stuff.

00:59:08.444 --> 00:59:15.524

<v Doc>I love it. So don't forget, people, if you need anything from us, you know how to find us.

00:59:15.644 --> 00:59:20.004

<v Doc>But also remember that thanks to Shore, Shore put this together for us.

00:59:20.084 --> 00:59:24.124

<v Doc>So we always want to give a big shout out to Shore for allowing this to be possible.

00:59:24.664 --> 00:59:28.724

<v Doc>So big ups to Shore. You can find out more about Shore.com. And of course,

00:59:28.984 --> 00:59:31.884

<v Doc>everything you need to find for us is at flow.ecam.com.

00:59:31.944 --> 00:59:36.944

<v Doc>That's F-L-O-W dot E-C-A-M-M dot com. I always want to say Eminem.

00:59:39.344 --> 00:59:44.664

<v Doc>Well, yes, you can leave us a voicemail, like reach out to us,

00:59:44.924 --> 00:59:47.064

<v Doc>just catch all the old episodes, all of the above.

00:59:47.204 --> 00:59:50.304

<v Doc>And no matter whether you choose audio or video, just do something.

00:59:50.544 --> 00:59:52.524

<v Doc>Just make something. That's my advice.

00:59:53.524 --> 00:59:56.724

<v Katie>Absolutely. If you need some things to steal, you can always steal this show.

00:59:57.064 --> 01:00:00.924

<v Katie>You can steal all the things that we do and say are happy for you.

01:00:00.924 --> 01:00:03.064

<v Doc>Just don't steal Luis. We kind of need him. Don't steal Luis.

01:00:03.244 --> 01:00:03.424

<v Katie>That's it.

01:00:03.704 --> 01:00:04.904

<v Doc>We don't steal Luis. Get your own producer.

01:00:06.944 --> 01:00:12.804

<v Katie>Well, thank you. I know last week we challenged a bunch of you to do a recording

01:00:12.804 --> 01:00:15.484

<v Katie>and I have seen a couple of them come through.

01:00:15.704 --> 01:00:19.144

<v Katie>Huge shout out to Bruce who emailed us directly with his recording,

01:00:19.364 --> 01:00:21.304

<v Katie>which was awesome to watch. So keep those coming.

01:00:21.504 --> 01:00:24.444

<v Katie>If you want to practice and send those our way, you can do that in the Ecamm

01:00:24.444 --> 01:00:31.404

<v Katie>community, E-C-A-M-M, E-C-A-M-M dot TV slash community. We'll drop you right

01:00:31.404 --> 01:00:33.824

<v Katie>into the community. You can share and post those.

01:00:34.124 --> 01:00:36.684

<v Katie>And yeah, we love to see what everyone's creating. So we appreciate it.

01:00:37.984 --> 01:00:40.184

<v Doc>There you go. You know what we say around these parts?

01:00:40.424 --> 01:00:43.284

<v Katie>Blow writers! Out! Bye, everyone!

01:00:43.760 --> 01:01:06.333

<v Music>