The Flow: Episode 106 - Cover Your Assets: Legal Must-Knows for Podcasters

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<v Music>

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<v Doc>Aloha Flow Riders, and welcome to another edition of The Flow.

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<v Doc>As you can see this week, it is just me. Katie is on a long-deserved vacation.

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<v Doc>Trust me, the moderators drive her nuts, so she needed some time off. Sorry, Paul.

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<v Doc>Anyway, today we got a really awesome show. The funniest thing about today's

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<v Doc>show is, I swear to you, I feel like I just left from hanging out with Gordon.

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<v Doc>We were in Chicago together, and prior to that, we were in Orlando together.

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<v Doc>So when I go to these shows, oftentimes I go see my man, G.

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<v Doc>I'm literally one of the coolest people in the world.

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<v Doc>But G is an attorney who helps out creators. He's known as the podcast lawyer.

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<v Doc>And I'm not going to go heavy into the bio because I want you to Google it.

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<v Doc>The reason why we're going to skip all of the pleasantries. Number one,

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<v Doc>he's my friend. I just like talking to my homie. No, you can't Google all of that crazy stuff.

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<v Doc>I need you to come with your questions because this is your opportunity.

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<v Doc>And I think there's a disclaimer that says, like, this is not legal advice.

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<v Doc>But I'm going to leave that up to Gordon because I don't even remember what it is.

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<v Doc>I just know that sometimes I hear people saying stuff on the Internet and I'm

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<v Doc>like, yo, I think you're supposed to drop a disco here and you didn't.

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<v Doc>So anyway, let's get into this because this is something I'm exciting about.

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<v Doc>Exciting, excited about. And I just don't want to wait any longer.

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<v Doc>So, Luis, can you please bring on Mr. Gordon Firemark?

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<v Gordon>Hello. Hello. Hey, Doc. Nice to be with you, man. Good to see you.

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<v Doc>How are you doing? How are you doing? Hey, first of all, I just want to tell

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<v Doc>you, I know I think probably told you this before.

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<v Doc>You have one of the coolest names in the business, by the way.

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<v Gordon>Well, I was lucky I was born with this name. It's, I guess, a stroke of good fortune.

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<v Gordon>It's one of those names that was created at Ellis Island or one of the immigration

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<v Gordon>centers when my great-great-grandfather came over from somewhere near either

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<v Gordon>Kiev or Minsk or something like that.

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<v Gordon>You know, the great Jewish immigration and just before the turn of the 20th

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<v Gordon>century. And if they couldn't pronounce your name on the third try,

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<v Gordon>you got a new name. And that's what happened with us.

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<v Doc>And you're like one-on-one, right?

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<v Doc>Yeah. Well, not you yourself, but I mean the name.

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<v Gordon>I am the oldest surviving male with the name Firemark. I have two sons,

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<v Gordon>but they're not ready. They better not be ready to have kids yet.

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<v Gordon>Yes, I'm the only Firemark in the world at the moment.

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<v Doc>All right. So today, gang, listen, people, get your questions ready.

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<v Doc>And, you know, Paul is somewhere telling you to make sure you pop a cue in the

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<v Doc>front to get ready for this. Um, we want to talk today about,

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<v Doc>you know, legal considerations when it comes to be a creator.

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<v Doc>Now, this is a, I have lots of questions for you, but this is a question that

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<v Doc>I love to ask people when I have the opportunity to, because again,

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<v Doc>you speak at lots of conferences, you're always on podcasts,

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<v Doc>you're traveling around.

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<v Doc>What's the one question that you wish creators would ask you, but they're not.

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<v Doc>Wow, um, Bingo, you saw that people. I try to do it every time.

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<v Gordon>A stumper. What, what are they, what would I wish they had asked that they don't?

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<v Gordon>Well, you know, I wish they would ask me, how can I be more business-like in my approach to things?

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<v Gordon>I think that's the most important and really, you know, that comes down to it

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<v Gordon>is if you're going to be in this creator economy, that if you're in it for the

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<v Gordon>business of it, the economy, you got to treat it like a business.

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<v Gordon>If you're just here to throw up a YouTube video once in a while or make a podcast

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<v Gordon>episode once in a while and you're not really pursuing a particular goal,

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<v Gordon>then it may be a little less concerned about the business side of things.

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<v Gordon>But, you know, it's always more fun to make a little money while you're doing

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<v Gordon>these fun things anyway.

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<v Gordon>So approaching it like a business.

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<v Doc>And now, of course, there is so much miscommunication and misunderstanding when it comes to.

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<v Doc>Music, clips, catching copyright claims. I got a really hilarious story.

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<v Doc>I made video a long time ago that I got hit with a bunch of copyright claims.

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<v Doc>And the funny thing is I had done about five videos. I'm just starting my channel. I'm brand new.

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<v Doc>And this thing was like, oh, you're getting copyright claims from something

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<v Doc>that's in the Apple Music Store.

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<v Doc>And I was like, wait, I used the music that came with iMovie.

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<v Doc>That should be safe, right? I mean, Apple wouldn't put in iMovie music.

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<v Doc>Some dude took the built-in tracks, I mean, all of the built-in tracks from

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<v Doc>iMovie and did the worst poetry ever.

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<v Doc>It's like, hi, this is Luis Vega and I am going to read you some poetry.

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<v Doc>Listen, as the fire comes across the forest, look at me, it's windy.

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<v Doc>And it was just on top of the music And he published it as an album in iTunes

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<v Doc>when the iTunes story first came out.

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<v Doc>And I had to fight tooth and nail with YouTube not to mess up my channel.

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<v Doc>They just laughed at it eventually and let it back. But what is the thing that

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<v Doc>people are getting wrong about this?

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<v Doc>Why is it such a crazy concept to people?

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<v Gordon>Well, music copyright in particular is one of the most complicated areas in

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<v Gordon>the field of entertainment law.

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<v Gordon>And because it's actually multiple copyrights that we have to think about.

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<v Gordon>So, first off, you know, just a misunderstanding of what is copyright and this

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<v Gordon>thing called fair use and all these things.

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<v Gordon>So, copyright is a protection that was set up.

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<v Gordon>The framers of the Constitution here in the U.S. recognized that there was a

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<v Gordon>need to incentivize inventors and artists and create patent and copyright law to do that.

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<v Gordon>So, the idea is to protect the original work that creators make so they can

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<v Gordon>make some money from it. And so, they have an incentive to keep doing it.

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<v Gordon>And that protection kicks in automatically when you create something original.

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<v Gordon>And so, people think, well, I found it on Google or I found it in a library somewhere.

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<v Gordon>I can use this stuff. And that's just not the way it works. You need to get

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<v Gordon>the permission of the owner of that creative work when you go out to use it.

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<v Gordon>And with music in particular, there's the person who wrote the song.

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<v Gordon>Sometimes it's multiple people, the lyrics and the music components,

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<v Gordon>and they own a copyright in the composition of the song.

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<v Gordon>And then there's the artists that

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<v Gordon>recorded it and the record label that presumably funded that recording.

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<v Gordon>And there's another copyright in the recording. So if you want to use a piece

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<v Gordon>of music in a video, for example,

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<v Gordon>or a podcast episode, you have to get permission from both the composer side,

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<v Gordon>which is usually handled by the music publisher, as well as the record label

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<v Gordon>that owns that recording copyright.

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<v Gordon>And we hear a lot about this conversation about fair use, but I'm here to tell

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<v Gordon>you most of the time it's not. It's not fair use.

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<v Doc>I think it's funny that people just I think a lot of people grip on to the fair

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<v Doc>use thing, especially when it comes to sort of reaction channels.

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<v Doc>Like to me, this is just weird as a creator.

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<v Doc>I think reaction channels, please.

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<v Doc>So I hope somebody doesn't have one. I think reaction channels are one of the

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<v Doc>laziest forms of content creating in the planet.

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<v Doc>But the reason why everybody wants

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<v Doc>to do one is there is precedent set by somebody else who already did it.

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<v Doc>And that person tends to be doing good. now i

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<v Doc>think it's harder this i could be wrong i think

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<v Doc>it's harder to do reaction channels in the u.s because i think

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<v Doc>we have stronger policies than many other

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<v Doc>places not all but i think

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<v Doc>a lot of people are copying somebody who might not live

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<v Doc>on u.s soil and they're doing it and just because

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<v Doc>you don't live on u.s soil doesn't mean that the u.s people won't come after

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<v Doc>you yeah um if nothing else but to scare you and outlaw you because they definitely

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<v Doc>have more money more lawyer more time so it's not really worth it just create

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<v Doc>original stuff but where is it okay because like okay here's a prime example

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<v Doc>A lot of my buddies do Apple content and they'll throw in stuff from the keynote

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<v Doc>and it just has a little sign on the bottom that says you know from Apple's

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<v Doc>whatever now in this particular case Apple's not going to come after them because

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<v Doc>they're helping out but the reality is Apple could come after them

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<v Doc>because they didn't get express permission from apple to use those clips

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<v Gordon>Yeah maybe um you

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<v Gordon>know this whole idea of fair use actually comes from the first amendment the

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<v Gordon>concepts of free speech and free press so if you are doing journalism and talking

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<v Gordon>about a new product line and and you're using some of the the footage or the

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<v Gordon>slides that come from that keynote to illustrate what you're talking about,

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<v Gordon>then it probably does land in that fair use area and Apple would be hard pressed to,

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<v Gordon>succeed in a, in a lawsuit.

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<v Gordon>But as you correctly pointed out, that would be extraordinarily bad PR for them in the first place.

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<v Gordon>And that's often the case with the reaction channels that you're talking about

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<v Gordon>too, is, you know, you, you make a, you make a stink about somebody doing a

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<v Gordon>reaction to one of your videos and now you're, you're republishing the whole

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<v Gordon>problem and making a a bigger thing out of it.

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<v Gordon>It's something called the Streisand effect, where Barbara Streisand complained

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<v Gordon>about photographers taking pictures of her house in Malibu.

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<v Gordon>And pretty soon it was on every newspaper in the country was carrying these

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<v Gordon>pictures to talk about what she was complaining about in the first place. She made it worse.

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<v Gordon>So that's a factor in these things.

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<v Gordon>Reaction channels are actually probably also in the neighborhood of fair use.

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<v Gordon>One of the factors in fair use is what's the purpose and character of what you're doing?

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<v Gordon>Is it sort of this journalism, education, information kind of thing,

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<v Gordon>or is it more commercial and just entertainment kind of stuff?

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<v Gordon>And if it's, if it's on the education journalism side, that's fair,

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<v Gordon>that's free speech, right?

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<v Gordon>But the other factors are how much of what you're copying, are you actually

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<v Gordon>taking, you know, the amount and substantiality of what's being taken and,

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<v Gordon>and is it somehow transforming the original or

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<v Gordon>is it sort of serving the same purpose and being a substitute and then the you

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<v Gordon>know is there market impact so in these uh reaction videos i think they're sort

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<v Gordon>of it's it's close to the line because most of them are reacting to the whole

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<v Gordon>video or the whole uh piece of whatever and and certainly in the podcast arena the the music side,

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<v Gordon>the music companies aren't tolerating that.

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<v Doc>Uh okay so i think we covered rose's question but i'm going to double check

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<v Doc>and i'm going to throw a follow-up uh and then we can work on the example So first, the follow-up.

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<v Doc>Isn't it just super simple to just send this person an email and say,

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<v Doc>hey, I'm going to do a reaction to a video that you just posted,

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<v Doc>kind of sort of whether you like it or not, but we don't say that part.

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<v Doc>And you say, I just want to let you know that, you know, we're no intention

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<v Doc>trying to copy your work or whatever, but I do want to give some different points on it.

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<v Doc>I mean, would you do that or would you just blind make the video?

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<v Gordon>I don't think I would give them an advanced heads up about that kind of thing.

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<v Gordon>You don't want to put yourself on the radar more than you already are um that

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<v Gordon>said you know maybe after you publish it you immediately say hey just wanted

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<v Gordon>to let you know we did this hope you hope you don't mind hope you like it whatever

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<v Gordon>um but i wouldn't give an advance warning because then they can tell you no

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<v Gordon>and now now you're you're.

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<v Doc>Acting yeah you've been told yeah okay so rosa's question was what scenario

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<v Doc>where fair use would apply in reaction commentary video give an example as possible

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<v Doc>i believe you did that but just in case you want to double down

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<v Gordon>Um you know If you're doing reactions to, I forget the fella's name,

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<v Gordon>but this guy wears a construction hat and he looks at all these construction

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<v Gordon>mishaps and he shows a clip and then there's his reaction and that's probably okay.

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<v Gordon>I think if you're showing the entire television episode.

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<v Doc>I know he's what you're talking about. Yeah.

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<v Gordon>He's good. He's great, right? Yeah. But if you're showing the entire episode

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<v Gordon>of a TV show or playing the entire song, I think it's much less likely to be

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<v Gordon>a fair use and more likely to look like copyright infringement.

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<v Gordon>And that's where you'll start to see issues.

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<v Gordon>YouTube tends to be pretty lenient about these things.

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<v Gordon>And if you say if someone submits a claim and you say it's fair use, they put it back up.

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<v Gordon>And it's pretty rare that you

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<v Gordon>hear about these things going any further than that. But it can happen.

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<v Doc>That's good. That's good. You know, it's It's funny to me, listen fam

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<v Doc>It's so easy to be a creator right now. There's so much creative things to talk about.

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<v Doc>Why bother? I'm just going to say that as a coach, stop being lazy. Don't react to videos.

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<v Doc>I get it. I get it.

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<v Doc>The temptation is there because it is easy, but easy is how we get ourselves in trouble.

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<v Doc>It really, really is. When you find out about the medicines that cause more

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<v Doc>damage than good, when you find out about most accidents happens from somebody

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<v Doc>trying to take a shortcut,

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<v Doc>it's just like the shortcut's not worth it bro like it's just

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<v Doc>not and i know why everybody wants to do reaction videos because it's

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<v Doc>quote unquote the easy grind those channels don't normally

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<v Doc>last very long either so you know if the bag is that important there's probably

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<v Doc>easier ways to make money than to make reaction videos and i don't know i just

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<v Doc>don't think they lead a lot i don't think they lead a lot to the overall conversation

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<v Doc>now what's his face john uh dune to dune to dune John Oliver.

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<v Doc>John Oliver's reaction content is beautiful. He has a whole entire writing staff.

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<v Doc>They're adding an entire story. They're researching. They're going deep.

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<v Doc>That to me is a little bit different, but like showing somebody else's video

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<v Doc>and going, ha ha, like, look at this. Like, to me, that's just lazy.

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<v Gordon>Picture in picture is a cop.

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<v Doc>And I'm sorry, I'm opinionated about this, but hey, is what it is.

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<v Doc>Okay. So here's the one that of course, everybody wants to know

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<v Doc>and i i

00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.199

<v Doc>guess i sit in a weird position on this it's like people

00:14:23.199 --> 00:14:28.399

<v Doc>want to know how do you protect you and your podcasts um well

00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.259

<v Doc>we'll come back to that should you be using ai

00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:37.719

<v Doc>and when we talk about this we mean from like the ai music standpoint or the

00:14:37.719 --> 00:14:44.659

<v Doc>ai generated video b-roll standpoint like is there any copyright situation in

00:14:44.659 --> 00:14:48.679

<v Doc>there well that's a broad question yeah

00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.579

<v Gordon>We're in a really early phase of

00:14:51.579 --> 00:14:55.599

<v Gordon>thing you know this is the wildest part of the wild west right now is the ai

00:14:55.599 --> 00:15:02.139

<v Gordon>and we have to kind of wait and see what's going to happen on the copyright

00:15:02.139 --> 00:15:07.539

<v Gordon>front well there's a couple components one is the the way the ais were trained

00:15:07.539 --> 00:15:09.139

<v Gordon>and you know they ingested all this,

00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.499

<v Gordon>all this content from out everywhere out there that they could.

00:15:12.939 --> 00:15:18.199

<v Gordon>And, um, the owners of copyrights in much of that material are suing right now.

00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:22.059

<v Gordon>There's several dozen lawsuits going on against AI companies right now that,

00:15:22.199 --> 00:15:27.319

<v Gordon>you know, various stages of things, but lawsuits take a long time to find resolution.

00:15:27.319 --> 00:15:32.899

<v Gordon>So five years from now, we may have more answers about whether what the AI learned

00:15:32.899 --> 00:15:38.459

<v Gordon>from was copyright infringement. But the problem is that sometimes those AIs actually output.

00:15:39.893 --> 00:15:44.013

<v Gordon>Equal, you know, the same stuff that they ingested. It's supposed to be generative

00:15:44.013 --> 00:15:47.793

<v Gordon>and doing its own thing, but everyone, you know, you can prompt it in such a

00:15:47.793 --> 00:15:51.273

<v Gordon>way that you can get the exact wording of a New York Times article,

00:15:51.453 --> 00:15:52.673

<v Gordon>for example, or something like that.

00:15:52.833 --> 00:15:57.073

<v Gordon>That is definitely copyright infringement. And if you are the one who publishes

00:15:57.073 --> 00:16:01.853

<v Gordon>something that it generated that way, you're going to be sued for copyright infringement too.

00:16:02.133 --> 00:16:06.293

<v Gordon>The same can be said of images. If I ask for a picture of Darth Vader,

00:16:06.513 --> 00:16:08.673

<v Gordon>it's going to output a picture of Darth Vader, right?

00:16:08.873 --> 00:16:13.753

<v Gordon>So maybe Disney, Lucasfilm are going to have something to say about that.

00:16:14.513 --> 00:16:17.813

<v Gordon>Should you use AI? I think, yeah, it's a great tool.

00:16:18.233 --> 00:16:21.213

<v Gordon>I wouldn't overuse it. I wouldn't rely too heavily on it.

00:16:21.293 --> 00:16:24.133

<v Gordon>Another important factor we have to think about is the other side of it is if

00:16:24.133 --> 00:16:30.313

<v Gordon>you use an AI tool to make your stuff, you are not in a position to claim ownership of that.

00:16:30.473 --> 00:16:38.033

<v Gordon>There's no copyright protection for what the AI generates because there's no human author.

00:16:39.213 --> 00:16:44.573

<v Gordon>So if you want to own what you make, make your own stuff. Don't rely on the AI too heavily.

00:16:44.993 --> 00:16:49.053

<v Doc>There you go. You heard it first. Listen, this is a tough one because,

00:16:49.053 --> 00:16:55.953

<v Doc>first of all, there is a big difference between sort of copyright stuff and IP stuff.

00:16:56.253 --> 00:16:58.413

<v Doc>IP mean intellectual property.

00:16:59.833 --> 00:17:02.693

<v Doc>I think that just gets confused in general.

00:17:03.113 --> 00:17:07.293

<v Gordon>Well, copyright is one kind of intellectual property. It's an umbrella term. So, yeah.

00:17:08.093 --> 00:17:12.513

<v Doc>And well, so here's what I've been trying to do.

00:17:13.053 --> 00:17:17.293

<v Doc>And I kind of stay away from any generated video at the moment.

00:17:17.573 --> 00:17:21.153

<v Doc>However, if I was going to generate a video, I would generate it with Firefly.

00:17:22.105 --> 00:17:27.665

<v Doc>Because Adobe has specifically stated and spent tons of money on coming up with

00:17:27.665 --> 00:17:30.645

<v Doc>this coalition of like ethical creation.

00:17:30.985 --> 00:17:34.225

<v Doc>Like everyone was mad at them. Like, well, you you made all of this.

00:17:34.505 --> 00:17:38.085

<v Doc>You're trained it off of the stuff that was in Adobe stock. And I was like,

00:17:38.145 --> 00:17:41.445

<v Doc>well, when you send the photo, I have, by the way, when you send a photo to

00:17:41.445 --> 00:17:42.925

<v Doc>Adobe stock, they give you two options.

00:17:43.425 --> 00:17:48.585

<v Doc>This is yours and yours alone. Or you leave it open to the greater diaspora

00:17:48.585 --> 00:17:53.005

<v Doc>of creators and you check the box. If you check the second box,

00:17:53.145 --> 00:17:56.285

<v Doc>you obviously get more exposure if that's what you're looking for.

00:17:56.565 --> 00:18:03.185

<v Doc>But, you know, I most of the stuff I submitted, I sort of submitted under CC. Brain just went dumb.

00:18:03.385 --> 00:18:03.825

<v Gordon>Creative comments.

00:18:03.985 --> 00:18:07.285

<v Doc>CC. Creative comments. There we go. Brain just went super stupid just now.

00:18:07.705 --> 00:18:11.705

<v Doc>And I was like, yeah, I don't care who takes it. Like I learned this is strange,

00:18:11.745 --> 00:18:17.105

<v Doc>but I learned my photos and video stuff from Trey Ratcliffe years ago when he

00:18:17.105 --> 00:18:19.305

<v Doc>was like the top photographer on the Internet.

00:18:19.745 --> 00:18:22.985

<v Doc>And Trey was like, I don't copyright anything. It's out there for the public

00:18:22.985 --> 00:18:27.465

<v Doc>use because I want people to see the world and get out there and start taking

00:18:27.465 --> 00:18:29.965

<v Doc>pictures and sharing because it adds a happiness thing.

00:18:30.325 --> 00:18:33.765

<v Doc>And he was like, I just think our copyright system is super old,

00:18:33.865 --> 00:18:36.865

<v Doc>outdated and borked. So I'm going to give everything I make.

00:18:36.945 --> 00:18:40.025

<v Doc>If you see an HDR picture created by Trey Radcliffe back in the day,

00:18:40.105 --> 00:18:41.205

<v Doc>you can use it for whatever you want.

00:18:41.685 --> 00:18:44.885

<v Doc>And I just, he was the first person that talked to me deeply about it.

00:18:45.005 --> 00:18:47.625

<v Doc>And I adopted that standpoint. Like, I don't care, Take all of my stuff.

00:18:47.805 --> 00:18:50.185

<v Doc>Like it's out there for you. That's what I'm doing here.

00:18:50.905 --> 00:18:53.645

<v Doc>But then other people like they're holding on to something like it's theirs.

00:18:53.685 --> 00:18:55.665

<v Doc>And I'm like, I seen your work, bro. It's not original.

00:18:56.465 --> 00:19:00.185

<v Doc>You took somebody else's stuff and added a cup of sauce to it and then tried

00:19:00.185 --> 00:19:01.845

<v Doc>to like copyright it. I'm like, go away.

00:19:01.965 --> 00:19:06.525

<v Doc>So I think that there's a weird situation when it comes to that.

00:19:06.645 --> 00:19:10.485

<v Doc>But if you're going to use it, I would say right now, what I know of today,

00:19:11.065 --> 00:19:14.905

<v Doc>Adobe products are probably the best, regardless of what the Internet said.

00:19:14.905 --> 00:19:18.065

<v Doc>Because those are just people who are reacting and listening

00:19:18.065 --> 00:19:23.165

<v Doc>to somebody else they spent crazy money to create that coalition they added

00:19:23.165 --> 00:19:28.925

<v Doc>canon sony fuji uh rico a whole bunch of people in that list and that ethical

00:19:28.925 --> 00:19:32.505

<v Doc>creation consortium which i'll give you the names for as soon as i paste the

00:19:32.505 --> 00:19:35.745

<v Doc>link in their stuff is probably good well and

00:19:35.745 --> 00:19:41.105

<v Gordon>With adobe you're paying for the access to their system and they are uh they

00:19:41.105 --> 00:19:45.325

<v Gordon>have arrangements with the creators of these things so there's a some kind of

00:19:45.325 --> 00:19:49.065

<v Gordon>a payment mechanism happening where the original creators are,

00:19:50.264 --> 00:19:53.904

<v Gordon>in the mix somehow. I don't know what the terms are exactly. And that's, you know.

00:19:54.364 --> 00:19:54.484

<v Doc>Right.

00:19:55.384 --> 00:19:58.764

<v Gordon>Right. I want to say one thing about this always is whatever tools you're using

00:19:58.764 --> 00:20:04.284

<v Gordon>in your creation, it really is a good idea as, as, as painful as it can be to

00:20:04.284 --> 00:20:07.784

<v Gordon>read those terms of use and the privacy policies and those kinds of things.

00:20:07.944 --> 00:20:11.564

<v Gordon>And especially the license terms, if you're using Adobe products,

00:20:11.644 --> 00:20:16.504

<v Gordon>because it'll tell you what you can and can't do in, in what's usually pretty

00:20:16.504 --> 00:20:20.404

<v Gordon>clear language some of the stock libraries aren't so clear but adobe's great.

00:20:21.544 --> 00:20:27.024

<v Doc>Yeah so that's a good question um i get a lot of flack because i'm always like

00:20:27.024 --> 00:20:31.304

<v Doc>just use adobe stock libraries but adobe stock library is 50 bucks a month but

00:20:31.304 --> 00:20:36.224

<v Doc>then you got stuff like envato elements or pixels or i forgot the other

00:20:36.224 --> 00:20:37.644

<v Gordon>Pixabay yeah there's a lot.

00:20:37.644 --> 00:20:41.564

<v Doc>Of pixabay um there's one more unsplash um

00:20:41.564 --> 00:20:48.624

<v Doc>i think unsplash is mostly considered uh creative commons oriented stuff but

00:20:48.624 --> 00:20:53.844

<v Doc>what do you what are people who are buying these like sort of low-priced libraries

00:20:53.844 --> 00:20:58.684

<v Doc>are they ever in trouble because they didn't go with something that's established

00:20:58.684 --> 00:21:00.284

<v Doc>and has lawyers backing them up

00:21:00.284 --> 00:21:06.364

<v Gordon>I yeah i had a client that used a piece of music that came from audio jungle which is part of that,

00:21:09.524 --> 00:21:16.804

<v Gordon>And used it for the show open for a podcast. So it's showing up in every episode, right?

00:21:17.204 --> 00:21:20.344

<v Gordon>Two, three, four years goes by. You got a couple hundred episodes going.

00:21:20.524 --> 00:21:24.344

<v Gordon>And then Envato comes out of the woodwork and says, hey, you bought a single use license from us.

00:21:25.084 --> 00:21:28.664

<v Gordon>You've got 199 unlicensed episodes pay up.

00:21:32.629 --> 00:21:36.229

<v Gordon>You've got to read the license terms. You've got to understand what you're getting.

00:21:37.209 --> 00:21:42.869

<v Doc>Yeah. Man, you just brought up some valuable info, people. I hope you're clocking this.

00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:48.209

<v Doc>I have definitely seen in situations where, you know, you get a font, right?

00:21:48.409 --> 00:21:52.269

<v Doc>And this is free font library because back in the day, before we got to AI music,

00:21:52.509 --> 00:21:55.129

<v Doc>it used to be get a CD that has a thousand and one fonts.

00:21:55.189 --> 00:21:59.949

<v Doc>That was always the number, a thousand and one. and if you were making flyers

00:21:59.949 --> 00:22:05.469

<v Doc>for the for the church and that was it you're good but if you were making flyers

00:22:05.469 --> 00:22:10.869

<v Doc>for the church fundraisers that's commercial and that might not be good or

00:22:10.869 --> 00:22:12.089

<v Gordon>Your home garage sale.

00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:15.089

<v Doc>Or your home garage sale correct right correct so you

00:22:15.089 --> 00:22:18.049

<v Doc>can actually get in trouble and i know somebody who published

00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:21.369

<v Doc>an entire book and then the company it wasn't

00:22:21.369 --> 00:22:25.189

<v Doc>a broader bond but it was one of those little generic like get all of these

00:22:25.189 --> 00:22:29.229

<v Doc>fun they came after them and like oh that's one of our funds and you didn't

00:22:29.229 --> 00:22:32.689

<v Doc>buy the font like oh by the way the font license to users commercially is 1500

00:22:32.689 --> 00:22:38.209

<v Doc>books yeah the cd was 15 dollars so make sure you read that stuff

00:22:38.729 --> 00:22:42.829

<v Doc>it's it's kind of a mess it's it's kind of a mess and and in publishing world

00:22:42.829 --> 00:22:47.389

<v Doc>they do come after people for font license issues a lot because people are always

00:22:47.389 --> 00:22:51.689

<v Doc>you know well my friend gave me the font with the design you can't

00:22:51.689 --> 00:22:55.909

<v Gordon>Yeah and it's interesting because fonts the the general shape of a typeface

00:22:55.909 --> 00:22:59.009

<v Gordon>is not something that can be copyrighted, but the ornamental parts of it,

00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:02.049

<v Gordon>the serifs and the curves and that stuff can.

00:23:02.169 --> 00:23:06.889

<v Gordon>So it's a really tricky area and you see something that's cool because it's

00:23:06.889 --> 00:23:09.909

<v Gordon>different, guess what? You're going to end up in this situation.

00:23:10.745 --> 00:23:18.305

<v Doc>Oh man, that's so crazy. That's so crazy. Okay. So how should you go about protecting

00:23:18.305 --> 00:23:20.005

<v Doc>yourself in your podcast?

00:23:20.665 --> 00:23:24.125

<v Gordon>Well, let's go back to what I said at the very beginning is start by thinking

00:23:24.125 --> 00:23:27.545

<v Gordon>of it in a business-like approach, approaching it as a business.

00:23:27.985 --> 00:23:32.045

<v Gordon>Even if you're not in it just to make money, thinking about it the way a business

00:23:32.045 --> 00:23:35.145

<v Gordon>would, you know, movie producers, movie productions, they go out,

00:23:35.265 --> 00:23:39.725

<v Gordon>they use contracts, they form companies, they raise the financing using,

00:23:39.725 --> 00:23:40.965

<v Gordon>you know, legal mechanisms.

00:23:41.485 --> 00:23:45.085

<v Gordon>Everybody who's involved in that movie production is signed to a contract and

00:23:45.085 --> 00:23:48.625

<v Gordon>then they protect their copyrights and that kind of thing.

00:23:48.825 --> 00:23:52.245

<v Gordon>Same approach for smaller content creators. You should think about,

00:23:52.385 --> 00:23:55.665

<v Gordon>if you're making any money at all, you should really think about having a business

00:23:55.665 --> 00:23:59.425

<v Gordon>structure, a corporation or an LLC, or at least something, if you're working

00:23:59.425 --> 00:24:00.525

<v Gordon>with partners and a team,

00:24:00.845 --> 00:24:04.865

<v Gordon>a partnership agreement, something that documents the nature of the relationship.

00:24:05.345 --> 00:24:09.545

<v Gordon>I'm a fan of the LLC format, limited liability company format,

00:24:09.765 --> 00:24:12.285

<v Gordon>but it can be expensive depending where you're located.

00:24:12.385 --> 00:24:18.945

<v Gordon>Here in California, LLC operations, the tax bill is significant each year,

00:24:18.965 --> 00:24:20.205

<v Gordon>even if you're not making a lot of money.

00:24:20.365 --> 00:24:23.425

<v Gordon>But it's something to think about. Talk to your tax advisors about it.

00:24:24.125 --> 00:24:28.685

<v Gordon>You should be thinking about the relationships you have with the members of

00:24:28.685 --> 00:24:31.465

<v Gordon>your team, whether that's a partner, co-producer,

00:24:31.825 --> 00:24:38.105

<v Gordon>co-host, or maybe it's an editor, a producer, a researcher, all of these people

00:24:38.105 --> 00:24:40.525

<v Gordon>should be signing contracts that specify things.

00:24:40.765 --> 00:24:43.725

<v Gordon>I call it a, in the podcast world, I call it a podcast prenup.

00:24:43.905 --> 00:24:47.665

<v Gordon>You want to figure out who's going to own what, who gets the house and kids

00:24:47.665 --> 00:24:49.545

<v Gordon>if this relationship breaks up, right?

00:24:50.805 --> 00:24:53.845

<v Gordon>Who owns the content? Who owns the raw materials?

00:24:53.965 --> 00:24:59.505

<v Gordon>Who owns the feed? Who owns the audience, the YouTube account, whatever it is, right?

00:24:59.625 --> 00:25:03.965

<v Gordon>You got to figure out who's going to do that. If you're hiring independent contractors,

00:25:04.285 --> 00:25:10.965

<v Gordon>they need to sign a piece of paper that says you, the hiring party, owns that stuff.

00:25:11.385 --> 00:25:13.765

<v Gordon>Otherwise, the law works the other way around sometimes.

00:25:15.948 --> 00:25:19.008

<v Gordon>Co-hosts can look like partners. Maybe that is what you want.

00:25:19.108 --> 00:25:22.828

<v Gordon>Maybe it isn't. So get these things down in writing and have those structures in place.

00:25:24.508 --> 00:25:32.088

<v Gordon>And then, you know, contracts with the folks that are going to pay you and figuring out your deals.

00:25:32.208 --> 00:25:33.988

<v Gordon>If you're doing a brand deal, you better get it in writing.

00:25:34.128 --> 00:25:39.628

<v Gordon>And it better be clear about what the brand can and can't do with the content later on.

00:25:40.228 --> 00:25:42.588

<v Gordon>How are you going to get paid? When are you going to get paid?

00:25:42.748 --> 00:25:44.428

<v Gordon>What happens if you don't get paid?

00:25:44.428 --> 00:25:47.528

<v Gordon>It's amazing how often that's an issue um

00:25:47.528 --> 00:25:50.448

<v Gordon>not getting paid after you deliver all the all the stuff

00:25:50.448 --> 00:25:53.768

<v Gordon>and the brand is seeing the benefits um right

00:25:53.768 --> 00:25:56.768

<v Gordon>and then you know the intellectual property is

00:25:56.768 --> 00:26:00.068

<v Gordon>kind of the fun stuff copyrights the trademarks the the trade

00:26:00.068 --> 00:26:03.068

<v Gordon>secrecy stuff that um you need

00:26:03.068 --> 00:26:06.988

<v Gordon>to protect what you've created and and uh and

00:26:06.988 --> 00:26:12.368

<v Gordon>perfect your ownership in those things if you're at all interested in turning

00:26:12.368 --> 00:26:18.068

<v Gordon>this thing into a business or maybe selling in the future or even just get to

00:26:18.068 --> 00:26:20.028

<v Gordon>get insurance in place and having

00:26:20.028 --> 00:26:25.068

<v Gordon>a good catalog of your intellectual property is an important step man.

00:26:25.068 --> 00:26:29.748

<v Doc>I think the insurance one would probably be a big one that a lot of people go

00:26:29.748 --> 00:26:35.208

<v Doc>miss i see that a lot with um you know going to do certain weddings and then

00:26:35.208 --> 00:26:39.108

<v Doc>they ask you hey do you have a insurance policy, please provide the paper.

00:26:39.268 --> 00:26:41.928

<v Doc>And I have to fax over it for that event.

00:26:42.168 --> 00:26:44.188

<v Doc>Like sometimes I'll pull 2 million just for an event.

00:26:44.848 --> 00:26:49.028

<v Doc>And that sounds crazy, but a 2 million event policy is like 85 bucks,

00:26:49.128 --> 00:26:50.308

<v Doc>people. It's not that expensive.

00:26:50.908 --> 00:26:54.728

<v Gordon>Some old lady who's had a couple of drinks trips over your power cord and breaks

00:26:54.728 --> 00:26:56.548

<v Gordon>her neck. You want to have insurance.

00:26:56.808 --> 00:26:59.868

<v Doc>You want to have it covered. Yeah, exactly. So I always,

00:27:00.028 --> 00:27:03.288

<v Doc>when I'm doing events, if they don't ask for it, i asked

00:27:03.288 --> 00:27:07.628

<v Doc>them did you guys buy an insurance policy for the event and am i covered into

00:27:07.628 --> 00:27:11.348

<v Doc>that policy and they say yeah i still get my own because legit you can go online

00:27:11.348 --> 00:27:15.448

<v Doc>and get policy for 40 50 60 70 80 bucks it really depends on the amount of people

00:27:15.448 --> 00:27:19.548

<v Doc>attending and the size of the venue but i like to get my own policies for events

00:27:19.548 --> 00:27:21.988

<v Doc>because i just don't you know this is me personally well

00:27:21.988 --> 00:27:24.468

<v Gordon>And there's lots of different kinds of insurance stock if you don't mind i'll

00:27:24.468 --> 00:27:27.708

<v Gordon>just touch on a couple others first off you have people working for you need

00:27:27.708 --> 00:27:32.788

<v Gordon>employer worker comp insurance if they get hurt on the job, if they're driving

00:27:32.788 --> 00:27:35.268

<v Gordon>cars around on business related stuff,

00:27:35.488 --> 00:27:38.668

<v Gordon>maybe you want to make sure your car insured, their car insurance covers those

00:27:38.668 --> 00:27:40.908

<v Gordon>things, or you carry an extra policy for that.

00:27:41.028 --> 00:27:45.268

<v Gordon>And, and for creators, you know, if we start talking smack about Luis is in

00:27:45.268 --> 00:27:48.608

<v Gordon>the background there, um, you know, we could say something.

00:27:48.788 --> 00:27:49.968

<v Doc>Don't tell Paul this information, please.

00:27:50.348 --> 00:27:50.748

<v Gordon>.

00:27:52.543 --> 00:27:58.223

<v Gordon>We're not going to spill the tea, Luis, but if we did, we could be in a position

00:27:58.223 --> 00:28:00.323

<v Gordon>of facing a defamation suit for libel.

00:28:00.543 --> 00:28:05.403

<v Gordon>So there are media insurance policies that cover creators for those kinds of

00:28:05.403 --> 00:28:08.663

<v Gordon>things, as well as copyright and trademark infringement and those kinds of things.

00:28:08.963 --> 00:28:13.923

<v Gordon>So this insurance thing is pretty important consideration, especially as you

00:28:13.923 --> 00:28:17.723

<v Gordon>start to generate some money or even just look to the outside world like you're

00:28:17.723 --> 00:28:21.823

<v Gordon>generating money because people sue people who they think are rich.

00:28:22.543 --> 00:28:26.383

<v Doc>Oh, yes. Oh, my God. That's super funny. And I'm like, you're suing the wrong

00:28:26.383 --> 00:28:28.883

<v Doc>person here. But it really does.

00:28:29.603 --> 00:28:32.563

<v Doc>It really does happen. It's kind of funny.

00:28:33.163 --> 00:28:35.763

<v Doc>Yeah, that was a good one. I'm glad we covered that because I think that's something

00:28:35.763 --> 00:28:38.703

<v Doc>that a lot of people forget about.

00:28:39.263 --> 00:28:42.183

<v Doc>Easy, easy, Paul. Keep it down. Keep it down over there. Okay,

00:28:42.403 --> 00:28:43.583

<v Doc>so we got a good question.

00:28:43.803 --> 00:28:47.343

<v Doc>It says, I know someone who makes songs for content creators using Suno.

00:28:47.343 --> 00:28:52.643

<v Doc>Are the songs they sell to these contributors copyright protected once it's

00:28:52.643 --> 00:28:57.923

<v Doc>sold to someone outside of the original person yeah that's the word

00:28:57.923 --> 00:29:02.743

<v Gordon>I think I missed something so this is you're buying a beat or something component

00:29:02.743 --> 00:29:08.763

<v Gordon>of a song and then adding it to your own again you gotta understand the terms of that deal,

00:29:09.343 --> 00:29:14.363

<v Gordon>the theory is that it's a buyout or a license to use it in your piece of music

00:29:14.363 --> 00:29:21.923

<v Gordon>So if it isn't, it should be documented properly in a contract that says,

00:29:22.063 --> 00:29:25.963

<v Gordon>here's what you're allowed to do with it, and you won't get a royalty.

00:29:25.963 --> 00:29:28.943

<v Gordon>Or maybe you will get a royalty and a credit and those kinds of things.

00:29:29.103 --> 00:29:33.403

<v Gordon>These entertainment deals can be pretty complicated, and oftentimes it's not

00:29:33.403 --> 00:29:35.703

<v Gordon>about the money. It's about all the other stuff that goes into them.

00:29:36.223 --> 00:29:40.923

<v Doc>Yeah. I, you know, at the end of the day, when it comes to content creators

00:29:40.923 --> 00:29:45.943

<v Doc>and this type of sort of event policy, I'm sorry, in this type of copyright

00:29:45.943 --> 00:29:49.843

<v Doc>policies, a lot of it has to do with hurt feelings.

00:29:49.923 --> 00:29:52.303

<v Doc>And I just want you guys to hear that clearly.

00:29:53.155 --> 00:30:01.835

<v Doc>If I made a song that I thought is the bee's knees and I post it online and I get a thousand views.

00:30:02.715 --> 00:30:08.795

<v Doc>And then Gordon takes my song and puts it in his video and his video gets a million views.

00:30:09.615 --> 00:30:13.315

<v Doc>I'm going to come in and be like, well, the reason why his video got a million

00:30:13.315 --> 00:30:14.935

<v Doc>views is because of my song.

00:30:15.075 --> 00:30:19.015

<v Doc>Not because he's a good content creator and the stuff that he made was way better than what I did.

00:30:19.275 --> 00:30:22.915

<v Doc>But then as a while, I'm going to sue is mostly overheard feelings.

00:30:23.155 --> 00:30:27.295

<v Doc>Yeah, it's really what it turns out to be. And it's like this,

00:30:27.415 --> 00:30:30.875

<v Doc>why I just don't even bother. I try to stay away from these things because it ain't worth it, bro.

00:30:32.835 --> 00:30:37.415

<v Gordon>It's true. It's true. And actually there's a whole class of kinds of claims

00:30:37.415 --> 00:30:39.615

<v Gordon>that we refer to as dignity claims.

00:30:40.275 --> 00:30:46.935

<v Gordon>You know, the defamation, the privacy, the, the feeling like you've been invaded somehow or, or, or,

00:30:47.055 --> 00:30:51.655

<v Gordon>you know, when, when there may not really be any actual physical or financial

00:30:51.655 --> 00:30:57.995

<v Gordon>financial harm but you know people juries love to help people with hurt feelings

00:30:57.995 --> 00:31:00.875

<v Gordon>so be careful about that well.

00:31:00.875 --> 00:31:04.475

<v Doc>Like you know why because juries have feelings too they're

00:31:04.475 --> 00:31:07.575

<v Gordon>People yeah yeah maybe that's what if you can.

00:31:07.575 --> 00:31:10.375

<v Doc>Get your case in front of a jury you might get a chance because other people

00:31:10.375 --> 00:31:13.355

<v Doc>are going to feel like they've been slighted by somebody we've definitely

00:31:13.355 --> 00:31:17.215

<v Doc>seen cases that shouldn't have won one like i don't know this is nothing to

00:31:17.215 --> 00:31:21.755

<v Doc>do with content creating but it drives me crazy that another person won a case

00:31:21.755 --> 00:31:28.875

<v Doc>for spilling coffee on their nets i'm like that was from what 91 you don't know

00:31:28.875 --> 00:31:32.475

<v Doc>not to put coffee in your nether regions at this point

00:31:32.475 --> 00:31:36.555

<v Gordon>You know what i'm gonna dispel a common myth about that particular case this

00:31:36.555 --> 00:31:38.235

<v Gordon>this is something that the new.

00:31:38.235 --> 00:31:38.995

<v Doc>One or the old one

00:31:38.995 --> 00:31:43.515

<v Gordon>Well the old one i i'm not familiar with the new one i think i did hear something the new one just.

00:31:43.515 --> 00:31:48.535

<v Doc>Happened in california like maybe two months ago oh some dude got another 60

00:31:48.535 --> 00:31:51.855

<v Doc>something million for another mcdonald's coffee in an ad situation

00:31:51.855 --> 00:31:54.955

<v Gordon>You would think we would be past the point where we cradled a

00:31:54.955 --> 00:31:58.155

<v Gordon>cup of coffee in our crotch as we're driving a car but i guess

00:31:58.155 --> 00:32:03.355

<v Gordon>we're not so to a certain extent that puts us puts the onus on the companies

00:32:03.355 --> 00:32:07.395

<v Gordon>that are selling the coffee to put us put a warning on things i guess that's

00:32:07.395 --> 00:32:12.635

<v Gordon>the theory so the the previous case i think her name was mrs pelham uh who sued

00:32:12.635 --> 00:32:16.595

<v Gordon>mcdonald's over the hot coffee and it was like 60 million bucks or something like that uh still.

00:32:16.595 --> 00:32:17.235

<v Doc>A lie back

00:32:17.235 --> 00:32:19.295

<v Gordon>Lie back that's right 79.

00:32:19.295 --> 00:32:23.775

<v Doc>Years old 1992 split a cup of coffee in the nether regions albuquerque new mexico

00:32:23.775 --> 00:32:26.275

<v Gordon>Nice google google skills i appreciate that you.

00:32:26.275 --> 00:32:26.575

<v Doc>Know what it

00:32:26.575 --> 00:32:32.995

<v Gordon>Is yeah so the the facts that aren't mentioned in most people talking about

00:32:32.995 --> 00:32:37.795

<v Gordon>that is that the coffee that mcdonald's was serving at the time was served at

00:32:37.795 --> 00:32:39.895

<v Gordon>about 50 degrees above the boiling point,

00:32:41.272 --> 00:32:46.352

<v Gordon>So, this was not just normal hot coffee. This was extraordinarily hot coffee.

00:32:47.072 --> 00:32:51.072

<v Gordon>McDonald's had decided in their wisdom that people were going to buy the coffee

00:32:51.072 --> 00:32:53.972

<v Gordon>and take it with them to work and then start drinking it.

00:32:54.052 --> 00:32:57.112

<v Gordon>And so, they wanted it to still be hot when they got there.

00:32:57.892 --> 00:33:01.612

<v Gordon>And they didn't consider, no, people are drinking it in the car and sometimes

00:33:01.612 --> 00:33:02.632

<v Gordon>they don't have a cup holder.

00:33:03.992 --> 00:33:07.012

<v Gordon>So, that was what the jury found so offensive.

00:33:07.012 --> 00:33:10.872

<v Gordon>As you're serving this stuff at 400 degrees celsius or you know whatever it

00:33:10.872 --> 00:33:15.472

<v Gordon>was and uh and you should at least warn people that caution this is very very

00:33:15.472 --> 00:33:17.492

<v Gordon>hot so that was sort of the,

00:33:18.072 --> 00:33:21.732

<v Gordon>partial rationale behind that case and yeah some of it was just oh this poor

00:33:21.732 --> 00:33:27.092

<v Gordon>old lady's you know her tender bits got burned so you know what are you gonna

00:33:27.092 --> 00:33:29.152

<v Gordon>do bad facts in that situation.

00:33:29.912 --> 00:33:33.392

<v Doc>Yeah there was another case recently and i

00:33:33.392 --> 00:33:38.012

<v Doc>mean this is literally like maybe two months ago somebody else got like 64 million

00:33:38.012 --> 00:33:42.532

<v Doc>dollars or something and it's like man listen this is why we have all the trouble

00:33:42.532 --> 00:33:45.772

<v Doc>that we're in now is because people are like suing people over stuff that's

00:33:45.772 --> 00:33:49.552

<v Doc>kind of sort of common sense but hey if you didn't protect yourself legally

00:33:49.552 --> 00:33:50.892

<v Doc>i guess you can get in trouble

00:33:50.892 --> 00:33:53.672

<v Gordon>You know there's there's always multiple sides of the story

00:33:53.672 --> 00:33:56.292

<v Gordon>but yeah that's one of the things that we live in

00:33:56.292 --> 00:33:59.272

<v Gordon>an extraordinarily litigious society you know earlier you were saying that

00:33:59.272 --> 00:34:02.112

<v Gordon>um it's sometimes harder in the states to do

00:34:02.112 --> 00:34:04.912

<v Gordon>things than it is elsewhere even though we have a fair use

00:34:04.912 --> 00:34:07.772

<v Gordon>law that many countries don't well that's because

00:34:07.772 --> 00:34:10.672

<v Gordon>in the states it's very easy to sue people

00:34:10.672 --> 00:34:15.632

<v Gordon>and it's very common to sue people we live in an extraordinary litigious country

00:34:15.632 --> 00:34:20.632

<v Gordon>where uh um people don't just don't let things roll off their shoulders like

00:34:20.632 --> 00:34:29.472

<v Gordon>like we used to and like people do in other places so um somebody offends you you sue right dignity so.

00:34:29.472 --> 00:34:34.452

<v Doc>Here's a here's a oh yeah Paul said the latest case was because the clerk didn't

00:34:34.452 --> 00:34:36.872

<v Doc>fasten the lid securely to the cup. That was the case.

00:34:37.032 --> 00:34:40.332

<v Doc>And the reason why that one drove me crazy is because I'm like,

00:34:40.412 --> 00:34:43.992

<v Doc>yo, the first time you ever do one to yourself as self-serve,

00:34:44.252 --> 00:34:45.692

<v Doc>like, you know, seven, 11 or whatever.

00:34:46.192 --> 00:34:49.532

<v Doc>One of the things about sweetheart and Dixie cups is they can get that little

00:34:49.532 --> 00:34:51.092

<v Doc>pinch and then the cap doesn't fit.

00:34:51.252 --> 00:34:51.452

<v Gordon>Right.

00:34:51.772 --> 00:34:56.872

<v Doc>Right. And then I forgot which store it is. I want to say it's five guys or

00:34:56.872 --> 00:34:58.452

<v Doc>one of these guys, their tops never fit.

00:34:58.612 --> 00:35:05.132

<v Doc>Like it's always kind of like half hazard. And Starbucks also famously tops never fit. So, you know,

00:35:05.660 --> 00:35:09.540

<v Doc>Either I always, when they hand me the cup, I do a little ring around and check

00:35:09.540 --> 00:35:11.240

<v Doc>and I never hold it by the top.

00:35:11.420 --> 00:35:15.020

<v Doc>Like if you're holding it by the top, you're kind of also squeezing this part.

00:35:15.520 --> 00:35:18.520

<v Doc>So you know what you're doing. So if you just grab the top of the falls and

00:35:18.520 --> 00:35:21.060

<v Doc>that's you, that's not their fault, bro.

00:35:21.120 --> 00:35:24.840

<v Doc>And it's like, it drives me crazy. Like we're just getting, nevermind.

00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:29.660

<v Gordon>Let's go on an hour long rant about the things that are wrong in America with illegal society.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.360

<v Doc>That stuff kills me. That stuff absolutely kills me. Cause I feel like people

00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:34.740

<v Doc>are searching for that kind of thing.

00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.640

<v Doc>There was a point where I felt like people were walking around looking for the

00:35:38.640 --> 00:35:42.300

<v Doc>drain in the dairy department where you could trip in because somebody got

00:35:44.600 --> 00:35:47.800

<v Doc>$164,000 for falling in the drain at Foodland over here.

00:35:48.140 --> 00:35:50.980

<v Doc>And then I swear people were walking around looking and see which one of the

00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:53.560

<v Doc>drains like the little metal thing slipped over so they could act like they

00:35:53.560 --> 00:35:55.060

<v Doc>fell in it. I was like, please stop.

00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:01.120

<v Doc>All right. So here's a question. If I'm doing this podcast situation and

00:36:02.689 --> 00:36:05.869

<v Doc>okay we're on the show right now together and we come

00:36:05.869 --> 00:36:09.229

<v Doc>up with something you know you say something phenomenal and you're like hey

00:36:09.229 --> 00:36:12.789

<v Doc>i want to use that for my social media to promote the thing now we're not going

00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:18.729

<v Doc>to see you we don't give a crap but not to survive court um but who owns what

00:36:18.729 --> 00:36:23.229

<v Doc>we're creating right now well or you well ecamm technically yeah

00:36:23.229 --> 00:36:28.489

<v Gordon>I i mean we actually didn't sign any paperwork i at least i didn't sign any

00:36:28.489 --> 00:36:32.329

<v Gordon>releases or anything like that for this appearance uh which is actually one

00:36:32.329 --> 00:36:36.029

<v Gordon>of the things i strongly advocate is get us get a signed guest release go on

00:36:36.029 --> 00:36:39.509

<v Gordon>over to podcastrelease.com and get my freebie and you'll.

00:36:39.509 --> 00:36:43.409

<v Doc>You'll wait you made a whole domain with this in here podcastrelease.com let

00:36:43.409 --> 00:36:46.109

<v Doc>me just put this in it come on y'all this this is gangster

00:36:46.909 --> 00:36:52.369

<v Gordon>Yeah it's a it's a free guest release that podcasters can use to document the

00:36:52.369 --> 00:36:56.229

<v Gordon>consent and the agreement to allow for the publication of the recording and

00:36:56.229 --> 00:36:59.529

<v Gordon>so on and what it says is the podcaster,

00:36:59.649 --> 00:37:03.189

<v Gordon>the creator owns the recording, the footage,

00:37:03.449 --> 00:37:07.089

<v Gordon>all of that, and can do pretty much anything with it they want without having

00:37:07.089 --> 00:37:09.669

<v Gordon>to pay me or the guest or whatever.

00:37:09.909 --> 00:37:13.049

<v Gordon>And you can tweak that and change things if that's the way you want to approach

00:37:13.049 --> 00:37:16.289

<v Gordon>it. But that's generally the idea.

00:37:16.509 --> 00:37:21.689

<v Gordon>Now, implicitly, if I come on your show, yeah, I'm agreeing to be on your show.

00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:25.089

<v Gordon>But when it's implicit, then it's also revocable.

00:37:25.209 --> 00:37:28.649

<v Gordon>I could come at you a week or a month or a year later and say,

00:37:28.789 --> 00:37:30.969

<v Gordon>you know what, take that episode down. I don't like that anymore.

00:37:31.729 --> 00:37:35.669

<v Gordon>And maybe that's no big deal, or maybe it is.

00:37:35.749 --> 00:37:38.629

<v Gordon>Maybe you've got sponsors in that show that paid for the opportunity to have

00:37:38.629 --> 00:37:41.009

<v Gordon>a show up there and an episode out there.

00:37:41.169 --> 00:37:44.269

<v Gordon>So, you know, now you're in breach of contract because the episode isn't where

00:37:44.269 --> 00:37:49.429

<v Gordon>they thought it was going to be forever and ever long tail kind So that's why

00:37:49.429 --> 00:37:52.749

<v Gordon>you need these consents, but to answer your bottom line question,

00:37:52.969 --> 00:37:55.189

<v Gordon>you guys are recording it on your end.

00:37:55.209 --> 00:37:57.749

<v Gordon>You're publishing it on your YouTube channel and stream.

00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:02.309

<v Gordon>You guys own it. That's my take on it. But like I said.

00:38:02.489 --> 00:38:07.209

<v Doc>We have definitely run into a situation where we're

00:38:08.001 --> 00:38:17.961

<v Doc>before where we get overzealous fans who like to create things using our logo mark

00:38:20.401 --> 00:38:25.121

<v Doc>and i call it all kind of heat about this being a copyright thing and i'm like

00:38:25.121 --> 00:38:31.181

<v Doc>logo mark and copyright are different they're not the same however how do you

00:38:31.181 --> 00:38:35.361

<v Doc>how does one uh protect I say even if something like that, right?

00:38:35.541 --> 00:38:39.581

<v Doc>Like if someone wanted to make something, you know, out of the flow,

00:38:39.761 --> 00:38:42.721

<v Doc>I don't have anything right now because it's hidden away, I believe.

00:38:42.941 --> 00:38:46.761

<v Doc>But like I used to have these, you know, somebody made a little cool sign for us.

00:38:46.881 --> 00:38:50.241

<v Doc>It's a little Ecamm situation and it was out of love. So of course we're not

00:38:50.241 --> 00:38:53.621

<v Doc>going to bother them, but you could definitely get in trouble for things like that.

00:38:53.941 --> 00:39:00.421

<v Doc>So how does one either protect themselves or get permission to do so?

00:39:00.641 --> 00:39:03.801

<v Gordon>Yeah. Well, okay. So let's start with the protection side. A brand,

00:39:03.981 --> 00:39:08.901

<v Gordon>any kind of a brand, any kind of a symbol or word or phrase or design that you

00:39:08.901 --> 00:39:14.701

<v Gordon>use that indicates the source of your goods and services, that's a brand. That's a trademark.

00:39:15.041 --> 00:39:20.081

<v Gordon>And the best thing to do if you have one that is distinctive and sets you apart

00:39:20.081 --> 00:39:25.141

<v Gordon>from the others out in the marketplace is to register the trademark.

00:39:26.141 --> 00:39:29.381

<v Gordon>Registration of trademarks is a territorial thing.

00:39:29.521 --> 00:39:34.321

<v Gordon>So you have to do it in each country where there's a concern about protecting your brand.

00:39:34.721 --> 00:39:38.201

<v Gordon>But I always recommend start here in the States if you're based in the States

00:39:38.201 --> 00:39:41.901

<v Gordon>and then look at other countries where there's a likelihood that someone's going

00:39:41.901 --> 00:39:46.241

<v Gordon>to come along and knock off your logo and start confusing the public.

00:39:49.021 --> 00:39:53.321

<v Gordon>The that trademark protects the trademarks are these brand identifiers and protecting

00:39:53.321 --> 00:39:58.641

<v Gordon>it means fans being able to stop others from using that brand in a way that

00:39:58.641 --> 00:40:03.821

<v Gordon>causes confusion, confusion as to the source or origin or an affiliation or so on.

00:40:03.961 --> 00:40:09.301

<v Gordon>So when a fan uses an Ecamm logo in a design or puts it on a t-shirt or sweatshirt

00:40:09.301 --> 00:40:11.581

<v Gordon>or something or a handbag,

00:40:11.781 --> 00:40:15.501

<v Gordon>it's going to look like that's coming from Ecamm and you're going to confuse

00:40:15.501 --> 00:40:19.001

<v Gordon>consumers as to who's behind this. So that's trademark infringement.

00:40:20.621 --> 00:40:24.761

<v Gordon>If you want to do that, the thing to do is ask for permission. It's called a license.

00:40:25.001 --> 00:40:30.161

<v Gordon>And very much like using a piece of music, you need a license to incorporate

00:40:30.161 --> 00:40:32.981

<v Gordon>someone's logo into your product or something like that.

00:40:33.141 --> 00:40:38.261

<v Gordon>And usually that goes with some quality control requirements and approvals and

00:40:38.261 --> 00:40:41.641

<v Gordon>things like that, because the brand wants to make sure that it's protecting

00:40:41.641 --> 00:40:47.841

<v Gordon>it's not just its design, but also its reputation and its image.

00:40:48.001 --> 00:40:51.641

<v Gordon>You know, let's say somebody puts the Ecamm logo on a crappy t-shirt that falls

00:40:51.641 --> 00:40:55.141

<v Gordon>apart after two wash-ins, that's not going to reflect very well on Ecamm.

00:40:56.001 --> 00:40:56.781

<v Gordon>Right. Yes.

00:40:57.141 --> 00:41:00.381

<v Doc>So, and that's where you get in trouble. Right. So somebody else did it.

00:41:00.441 --> 00:41:02.301

<v Doc>And it's like, well, you let that person do it. And I was like,

00:41:02.421 --> 00:41:04.481

<v Doc>yeah, because I, I'm going to be mean about this.

00:41:04.621 --> 00:41:08.921

<v Doc>That person designed something in a manner that was beautifully designed.

00:41:09.361 --> 00:41:15.841

<v Doc>So it didn't make, you know, party X look bad, but you designed something that

00:41:15.841 --> 00:41:18.141

<v Doc>looked like your camera didn't work.

00:41:19.521 --> 00:41:23.361

<v Doc>And then it just looks bad and so you're going to come after the person that

00:41:23.361 --> 00:41:26.541

<v Doc>makes the thing ugly it's just like you know someone's using your clip if they

00:41:26.541 --> 00:41:29.681

<v Doc>use your clip to make you look good and they get you more views you're probably

00:41:29.681 --> 00:41:33.221

<v Doc>not bothering them but if you make them a clip use a clip to make someone look

00:41:33.221 --> 00:41:36.881

<v Doc>bad oh they might come after you bro actually and i don't blame them for it because

00:41:36.881 --> 00:41:40.061

<v Gordon>This is one of those situations where you have to be really careful even about

00:41:40.061 --> 00:41:45.541

<v Gordon>the one that makes you look good because if you do routinely let those kinds of things slide.

00:41:45.541 --> 00:41:46.201

<v Doc>Then you're in trouble.

00:41:46.381 --> 00:41:50.961

<v Gordon>It's called a naked license basically. And, and, um, if you do that,

00:41:51.101 --> 00:41:53.581

<v Gordon>you can eventually be in positions that, well, you didn't protect and defend

00:41:53.581 --> 00:41:55.881

<v Gordon>your, your ownership of that brand.

00:41:56.121 --> 00:42:00.281

<v Gordon>So it's now considered more generic and not protected anymore.

00:42:00.581 --> 00:42:06.661

<v Gordon>So that's why you hear about brands going after the little guy who uses the thing a little bit.

00:42:06.761 --> 00:42:10.761

<v Gordon>And, and even though it's a perfectly flattering portrayal or something like

00:42:10.761 --> 00:42:15.121

<v Gordon>that, that trademark owners kind of have to go after people to uh otherwise.

00:42:15.121 --> 00:42:17.441

<v Doc>You're setting the idea that it's okay to steal my

00:42:17.441 --> 00:42:18.501

<v Gordon>Stuff exactly yeah.

00:42:18.501 --> 00:42:21.961

<v Doc>Oh super good so joe had a question do you want to know looking back is there

00:42:21.961 --> 00:42:24.861

<v Doc>a moment in your career that totally shifted your path

00:42:24.861 --> 00:42:33.201

<v Gordon>There are a couple of moments in my in my history one was the kids just the

00:42:33.201 --> 00:42:40.321

<v Gordon>suggestion that you know well yeah um the first one was i was in i was in school studying radio,

00:42:40.421 --> 00:42:44.761

<v Gordon>TV, and film, and I was going to be a filmmaker or work in the television business.

00:42:44.981 --> 00:42:49.701

<v Gordon>And I had sort of finished up my major and my professor for one of the graduate

00:42:49.701 --> 00:42:54.021

<v Gordon>level classes on government regulation of the media pulled me aside and said,

00:42:54.121 --> 00:42:55.281

<v Gordon>you're the only undergrad in the class.

00:42:55.401 --> 00:42:58.221

<v Gordon>You're getting the top score in the class. You should think about going to law school.

00:42:58.981 --> 00:43:02.361

<v Gordon>And I laughed my butt off at that idea.

00:43:02.521 --> 00:43:06.601

<v Gordon>And then it set in a few days later and i applied to law school and got in and

00:43:06.601 --> 00:43:12.181

<v Gordon>didn't get into film school by the way so that was one of those moments that's a crazy.

00:43:12.181 --> 00:43:15.801

<v Doc>Pivot man gee as much as we talk i didn't know that about you i mean i knew

00:43:15.801 --> 00:43:20.681

<v Doc>you knew a lot about av but i didn't ever bother to ask why i thought you were just a nerd like me

00:43:20.681 --> 00:43:23.861

<v Gordon>Yeah i actually worked a couple years in tv pride well i came out of theater

00:43:23.861 --> 00:43:28.081

<v Gordon>first and then i worked in tv production uh before i went to law school and

00:43:28.081 --> 00:43:31.621

<v Gordon>and during law school a little bit as well but uh so that's one pivot point

00:43:31.621 --> 00:43:34.401

<v Gordon>and then i'll you know what the other one was when I,

00:43:35.819 --> 00:43:39.719

<v Gordon>Uh, I was following Leo Laporte when he was on tech TV and, and,

00:43:39.819 --> 00:43:44.099

<v Gordon>uh, um, and then they changed their name to something.

00:43:44.339 --> 00:43:46.759

<v Gordon>And, and he left ZDTV. What's that?

00:43:47.099 --> 00:43:53.439

<v Gordon>Well, ZDTV, then it was tech TV. Then it was some gaming oriented revision three, something like that.

00:43:53.539 --> 00:43:58.379

<v Gordon>And, and so when he left tech TV and started up his twin network,

00:43:58.439 --> 00:44:01.979

<v Gordon>it was with one show on Sunday afternoons this week in tech.

00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:02.859

<v Doc>This week in tech.

00:44:03.019 --> 00:44:07.219

<v Gordon>And I heard that show and I thought, that's so cool. And I was just starting

00:44:07.219 --> 00:44:09.939

<v Gordon>out my, my, well, not just, I'd been in practice for a few years,

00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:13.779

<v Gordon>but I wanted to do something different to market my, my practice.

00:44:13.779 --> 00:44:16.519

<v Gordon>And I had been blogging and those kinds of things about that blogging is a lot

00:44:16.519 --> 00:44:19.039

<v Gordon>of work to sit down and write something and really be perfect about it.

00:44:19.339 --> 00:44:22.379

<v Gordon>I want to just talk into a microphone and record a show and put it out there.

00:44:22.479 --> 00:44:27.959

<v Gordon>And so I started podcasting and, um, you know, initially I just sort of picked it up on a whim.

00:44:28.139 --> 00:44:30.979

<v Gordon>I'd been a guest on a few shows and I decided to start my own show.

00:44:30.979 --> 00:44:34.999

<v Gordon>And, and then I realized, well, this is a kind of media production.

00:44:34.999 --> 00:44:38.619

<v Gordon>I really ought to check and see if there's any legal stuff that needs to be thought about.

00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:42.239

<v Gordon>And I realized that there was, but there weren't any, any resources.

00:44:42.539 --> 00:44:45.619

<v Gordon>So I sat down and did some research and ended up writing a book.

00:44:45.739 --> 00:44:50.819

<v Gordon>And, and so that moment of discovering podcasting as a marketing tool for my

00:44:50.819 --> 00:44:54.279

<v Gordon>law practice really pivoted me into being the podcast lawyer.

00:44:54.999 --> 00:44:57.579

<v Gordon>And, uh, that has been.

00:44:57.699 --> 00:45:02.179

<v Doc>Man, listen, that just blows my mind. Okay. I'll tell you why this absolutely blows my mind.

00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:09.839

<v Doc>Well, I too started the idea that I was going to go into something in the nature

00:45:09.839 --> 00:45:16.259

<v Doc>of tech education or tech journalism because of the original show on ZDTV when

00:45:16.259 --> 00:45:17.579

<v Doc>it was only available on DISH.

00:45:17.859 --> 00:45:24.319

<v Doc>And then it switched over to, actually it was called tech TV and then ZD TV.

00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:29.459

<v Doc>And then it went to eventually become, become revision three.

00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:32.299

<v Doc>And well, that's the split. And then, yeah,

00:45:34.234 --> 00:45:37.334

<v Doc>Sunday, Twitch celebrated its 20th anniversary.

00:45:38.734 --> 00:45:41.894

<v Doc>I am on hundreds of episodes on Twitch,

00:45:42.534 --> 00:45:49.914

<v Doc>but like I started like really honing in the idea of a video or I was doing podcasting prior,

00:45:50.154 --> 00:45:53.754

<v Doc>but that was hand coding, you know, like you had to hand code your XML files

00:45:53.754 --> 00:45:55.334

<v Doc>and then feed burner came out

00:45:55.334 --> 00:46:00.394

<v Doc>in like 2006, seven, which made it a little easier. It wasn't, it wasn't,

00:46:00.434 --> 00:46:02.074

<v Gordon>It was when I started was feed burner.

00:46:02.194 --> 00:46:05.874

<v Doc>Yeah. And Oh yeah. Yeah. G4 TV. Thank you, Rich. Thank you. Thank you.

00:46:05.974 --> 00:46:08.634

<v Doc>Thank you. That's the one. G4 TV. Yes.

00:46:09.174 --> 00:46:19.374

<v Doc>And so it's funny. I went to San Fran after I met Leo and we started being friends back then.

00:46:19.674 --> 00:46:22.714

<v Doc>I started being on the network a lot from about 2012.

00:46:23.594 --> 00:46:26.334

<v Doc>And yeah, 20 years in the making, bro. Crazy.

00:46:26.514 --> 00:46:30.394

<v Doc>And it's funny because I have people in Ecamm who are like, oh,

00:46:30.454 --> 00:46:34.934

<v Doc>I found Ecamm because of you on MacBreak Weekly or on Twit because I'm on Twit,

00:46:34.954 --> 00:46:37.494

<v Doc>you know, at least five, six times a year.

00:46:37.674 --> 00:46:41.074

<v Doc>And then on MacBreak Weekly about the same.

00:46:41.194 --> 00:46:45.074

<v Doc>I just did MacBreak Weekly last weekend, which is just absolutely crazy that,

00:46:45.074 --> 00:46:48.834

<v Doc>you know, that's one of your starting points because we have a very similar starting point.

00:46:48.994 --> 00:46:52.394

<v Gordon>I got to be on this week in law a couple of times, too. That was pretty fun.

00:46:52.554 --> 00:46:57.794

<v Doc>Oh, nice. Nice. Well, I will tell my people in the back, like if they ever need

00:46:57.794 --> 00:47:00.554

<v Doc>another person, bring them, Especially when we got to talk about something legal

00:47:00.554 --> 00:47:03.214

<v Doc>because Apple, you know, they're forever getting sued.

00:47:04.354 --> 00:47:05.434

<v Gordon>And so it's like.

00:47:05.514 --> 00:47:09.514

<v Doc>Oh, my God, therefore, they're always getting sued.

00:47:09.734 --> 00:47:13.274

<v Doc>And this is not a creative question, but what the hell is it about each text

00:47:13.274 --> 00:47:16.694

<v Doc>is that just comes up with the craziest lawsuits?

00:47:17.174 --> 00:47:22.374

<v Gordon>Oh, well, that's really interesting. That is the form that lawyers and companies

00:47:22.374 --> 00:47:28.974

<v Gordon>deliberately choose to file their lawsuits in because the judges and apparently

00:47:28.974 --> 00:47:34.614

<v Gordon>the juries there seem to really like the big companies that own patents and things.

00:47:35.054 --> 00:47:39.274

<v Gordon>So it's, yeah, it's the favorite jurisdiction for those kinds of lawsuits.

00:47:39.454 --> 00:47:41.794

<v Gordon>And that's why you see some crazy rumors coming out of it.

00:47:42.394 --> 00:47:46.114

<v Doc>Okay, step one. Everybody here needs to do something right away.

00:47:46.294 --> 00:47:47.334

<v Doc>They haven't done it yet.

00:47:47.894 --> 00:47:51.374

<v Doc>What's the first step they should take after listening to Gordon?

00:47:51.774 --> 00:47:52.634

<v Doc>What should they do today?

00:47:55.374 --> 00:47:59.534

<v Gordon>Get that podcast guest release, get your, get your guests to start signing releases.

00:47:59.714 --> 00:48:02.534

<v Gordon>Don't don't try to go back in the old guests and get them to sign unless you're

00:48:02.534 --> 00:48:07.454

<v Gordon>planning on repurposing that, that content, but just going forward,

00:48:07.634 --> 00:48:08.714

<v Gordon>get those releases signed.

00:48:08.954 --> 00:48:14.674

<v Gordon>Second thing I would say is, um, look at your relationships and decide whether

00:48:14.674 --> 00:48:19.774

<v Gordon>you have to whether you ought to start a company, an LLC or something,

00:48:19.994 --> 00:48:23.734

<v Gordon>or at least get those relationships in writing and, uh,

00:48:24.574 --> 00:48:27.434

<v Gordon>and a document, you know, the, who owns what, who gets what,

00:48:27.534 --> 00:48:32.314

<v Gordon>who's responsible for what, and what happens if somebody needs to leave or needs to be shown the door.

00:48:34.136 --> 00:48:36.576

<v Doc>I'm just putting this in the chat so everybody can remember,

00:48:36.976 --> 00:48:38.156

<v Doc>document that ownership.

00:48:38.716 --> 00:48:45.336

<v Doc>And yeah, I definitely have heard someone recently tell me that they were going through a pod divorce.

00:48:45.956 --> 00:48:51.236

<v Doc>And it can be challenging because the person wanted them to take down all the

00:48:51.236 --> 00:48:53.036

<v Doc>old episodes that they were on.

00:48:54.316 --> 00:48:58.696

<v Doc>And the funny thing is, if I remember correctly, the pod divorce wasn't because

00:48:58.696 --> 00:49:00.316

<v Doc>the two hosts were mad at each other.

00:49:00.316 --> 00:49:03.896

<v Doc>This person got a position where

00:49:03.896 --> 00:49:07.036

<v Doc>their current employers wasn't going

00:49:07.036 --> 00:49:10.676

<v Doc>to like whatever they podcasted about prior so

00:49:10.676 --> 00:49:13.296

<v Doc>they wanted it taken down but then the other person didn't want

00:49:13.296 --> 00:49:18.076

<v Doc>to take it down because it's 200 and something so it's right and it's just like

00:49:18.076 --> 00:49:23.516

<v Doc>bro that's just terrible it's terrible is that's a crazy question maybe this

00:49:23.516 --> 00:49:27.876

<v Doc>is dumb uh sometimes i have weird thoughts is there anything that you can do

00:49:27.876 --> 00:49:30.756

<v Doc>when you're going in and be like hey i have this older their podcasts.

00:49:30.936 --> 00:49:34.676

<v Doc>And this is the things that we said, but, um, I'm in a different headspace right now.

00:49:35.116 --> 00:49:39.136

<v Doc>So I don't want to take them down because they're history, but,

00:49:39.276 --> 00:49:42.136

<v Doc>uh, just understand that this is where we are today. That's not where I am.

00:49:42.236 --> 00:49:46.896

<v Gordon>You talk about unringing a bell. Uh, yeah, pretty hard to do, I think.

00:49:47.056 --> 00:49:51.056

<v Gordon>But, uh, you know, look, there's always a way to manage perceptions about these

00:49:51.056 --> 00:49:53.956

<v Gordon>kinds of things. And I think you just go in, I mean, you could just disavow.

00:49:54.276 --> 00:49:57.676

<v Gordon>Oh, Hey, you know, I don't know what I was thinking that that came at a weird

00:49:57.676 --> 00:50:01.316

<v Gordon>time in my life whatever but no i mean if you you know look if your job's in

00:50:01.316 --> 00:50:06.836

<v Gordon>jeopardy i i get it you gotta ask for the takedown or something but um that's

00:50:06.836 --> 00:50:11.996

<v Gordon>a that's not a situation i you know that that long tail of old episodes has value and yeah.

00:50:11.996 --> 00:50:15.376

<v Doc>I wouldn't want to take it down well also wouldn't take a job where they try

00:50:15.376 --> 00:50:19.636

<v Doc>to tell me that i i can't do what i was doing uh but that's a whole different

00:50:19.636 --> 00:50:23.576

<v Doc>right you know that's the thing that's a litmus test that's for you and you alone

00:50:23.576 --> 00:50:26.976

<v Gordon>Can you imagine if you ended up taking a job with a different company that let's

00:50:26.976 --> 00:50:29.876

<v Gordon>say you ended up going to stream yard or something like that.

00:50:30.016 --> 00:50:35.656

<v Gordon>And I know it's blasphemy, but you know, is he cam really going to take down

00:50:35.656 --> 00:50:37.636

<v Gordon>all those old episodes of the flow? It's ridiculous.

00:50:38.056 --> 00:50:45.176

<v Doc>No. Well, this is funny that you say that you can wouldn't, but I'm willing to bet.

00:50:45.376 --> 00:50:47.596

<v Doc>And I don't know if this is slanderous or not.

00:50:47.816 --> 00:50:51.636

<v Doc>I'm willing to bet if the situation were reversed, they would want to,

00:50:51.656 --> 00:50:55.196

<v Doc>they have softer skin and they're 10 X bigger company.

00:50:56.016 --> 00:50:59.476

<v Doc>I don't know what it is about big companies that be with the soft skin like

00:50:59.976 --> 00:51:02.696

<v Doc>k and g would be like whatever man like we don't care we got

00:51:02.696 --> 00:51:05.416

<v Doc>we're trying to make good software for the people that are still

00:51:05.416 --> 00:51:09.076

<v Doc>here we're not worried about that dork you know it's just literally one of those

00:51:09.076 --> 00:51:12.936

<v Doc>things that i think it wouldn't make it make a difference um paul said it's

00:51:12.936 --> 00:51:16.936

<v Doc>easier to make adjustments before the divorce yes all right that's cool okay

00:51:16.936 --> 00:51:22.096

<v Doc>so if again people we put the link in the chat make sure you go to gordon site

00:51:22.096 --> 00:51:25.216

<v Doc>um it's super simple it's gordonfiremark.com Yeah.

00:51:25.935 --> 00:51:28.915

<v Doc>And then what is a podcast, release.com

00:51:28.915 --> 00:51:33.095

<v Gordon>Podcast, release.com. Absolutely. And if you're interested in learning more

00:51:33.095 --> 00:51:36.575

<v Gordon>about this trademark thing, by the way, if you've got a distinctive channel

00:51:36.575 --> 00:51:41.415

<v Gordon>name for your YouTube channel or podcast title, this is big. This is important.

00:51:41.635 --> 00:51:45.835

<v Gordon>I think that more folks should be looking at how do you make sure there aren't

00:51:45.835 --> 00:51:49.895

<v Gordon>going to be six other shows called the flow out there or there is.

00:51:50.115 --> 00:51:55.135

<v Gordon>Well, yeah, I mean, not, that's not surprising, but there, you know,

00:51:55.235 --> 00:51:55.915

<v Gordon>there are some strategies.

00:51:55.935 --> 00:51:59.015

<v Gordon>Strategies we can do to make sure that especially when you're brand new and

00:51:59.015 --> 00:52:03.695

<v Gordon>starting up a choose wisely so you know you're the only one entering that market

00:52:03.695 --> 00:52:07.975

<v Gordon>with that title and then you know get the protection in place soon so you can

00:52:07.975 --> 00:52:11.515

<v Gordon>tell them hey stop it that's our title there.

00:52:11.515 --> 00:52:15.875

<v Doc>You go there you go yeah man I think there's a lot to it I think it's so easy

00:52:15.875 --> 00:52:20.915

<v Doc>for people that just you know go really really far before they realize oh this

00:52:20.915 --> 00:52:24.255

<v Doc>is something that I should have done so if you haven't already,

00:52:24.355 --> 00:52:28.515

<v Doc>here's a good chance to start one last question.

00:52:30.607 --> 00:52:36.447

<v Doc>I was recently sent a site that was kind of like some,

00:52:36.687 --> 00:52:40.807

<v Doc>Etsy's not the right word for it, but let's just call it like Etsy,

00:52:40.947 --> 00:52:44.827

<v Doc>like boilerplate language for people to go and get, you know,

00:52:44.967 --> 00:52:50.287

<v Doc>various agreements for their sites and for their podcasts and so forth and so

00:52:50.287 --> 00:52:53.147

<v Doc>forth and et cetera. What is your take on that?

00:52:54.127 --> 00:52:58.047

<v Gordon>Well, as an owner of one of those sites, podcastlawforms.com,

00:52:58.127 --> 00:53:02.267

<v Gordon>I'm in favor of the idea, but you got to make sure you're dealing with somebody

00:53:02.267 --> 00:53:03.127

<v Gordon>who knows what they're doing.

00:53:03.447 --> 00:53:08.447

<v Gordon>And, okay. Um, you know, yeah. Find a reputable source for this kind of stuff

00:53:08.447 --> 00:53:10.407

<v Gordon>and, and, ask the right questions.

00:53:11.187 --> 00:53:13.827

<v Doc>There you go. There you go. Cause I think a lot of people are like,

00:53:14.007 --> 00:53:17.447

<v Doc>all right, this is good, but I've seen some that are like, there's no way that

00:53:17.447 --> 00:53:18.747

<v Doc>I've, I've looked at this.

00:53:18.907 --> 00:53:22.087

<v Doc>You can just run a scan on it through the same one that teachers use.

00:53:23.247 --> 00:53:28.687

<v Doc>This same document is published in 75 places on the net. This is probably not a good one.

00:53:31.107 --> 00:53:31.947

<v Doc>You know what I mean?

00:53:32.327 --> 00:53:33.147

<v Gordon>Uh, yeah.

00:53:33.527 --> 00:53:37.307

<v Doc>Uh, wow. Doc, if that name is already trademarked, you may have to change the

00:53:37.307 --> 00:53:40.367

<v Doc>show name. No, it's not trademarked. We did check that, but, uh, yeah.

00:53:41.447 --> 00:53:42.787

<v Doc>Um, no, no.

00:53:42.907 --> 00:53:47.167

<v Gordon>That's funny. I've got a call scheduled with a fellow later today. Who's in his email.

00:53:47.387 --> 00:53:51.147

<v Gordon>He, he mentioned a title for the show that he wants to use that sort of linked

00:53:51.147 --> 00:53:52.967

<v Gordon>to his, his own last name.

00:53:53.407 --> 00:53:56.987

<v Gordon>And I just went looking to, can I check out the show before I talked to the

00:53:56.987 --> 00:53:59.647

<v Gordon>guy? And it turns out there's another show out there. That's much bigger.

00:53:59.947 --> 00:54:02.387

<v Gordon>So it's going to be a real challenge.

00:54:02.647 --> 00:54:06.227

<v Doc>That's going to be a tough one. See, I think it's so easy because,

00:54:06.247 --> 00:54:11.087

<v Doc>you know, one of the hardest things is picking your name and for your show and

00:54:11.087 --> 00:54:13.467

<v Doc>things of that nature. Well, people say it's hard.

00:54:13.627 --> 00:54:15.927

<v Doc>I'm like, just pick a name. You can change it whenever.

00:54:16.307 --> 00:54:21.727

<v Doc>Yeah. Like if this show is good, does it really matter if you have to change the name? Probably not.

00:54:22.667 --> 00:54:27.467

<v Doc>Right. It's just the reality of it is I can think of a whole bunch of things

00:54:27.467 --> 00:54:29.647

<v Doc>that are not even good that change their name.

00:54:30.587 --> 00:54:32.487

<v Doc>Nobody goes to Kentucky fried chicken.

00:54:34.427 --> 00:54:36.267

<v Gordon>And we go to KFC now, right?

00:54:36.507 --> 00:54:39.767

<v Doc>A hundred percent. Right. And then it's, it's PK.

00:54:40.367 --> 00:54:43.827

<v Doc>I still use Burger King, but most people go by BK. There's tons of stuff that

00:54:43.827 --> 00:54:46.727

<v Doc>had to change their name. The Washington freaking commanders.

00:54:47.527 --> 00:54:47.927

<v Gordon>Yeah.

00:54:48.287 --> 00:54:51.647

<v Doc>Right. Anything can change. If it's good, they're good now. But you know what?

00:54:51.707 --> 00:54:56.267

<v Gordon>These big companies, they pour tons and tons of money into those rebrands when they do it.

00:54:56.507 --> 00:54:59.247

<v Gordon>And Kentucky fried chicken is an interesting one because they were sort of forced

00:54:59.247 --> 00:55:04.187

<v Gordon>to do it because of a ruling about the particular animal that they cook is no

00:55:04.187 --> 00:55:05.247

<v Gordon>longer considered a chicken.

00:55:07.670 --> 00:55:11.450

<v Gordon>Wow, that's funny. This is apocryphal. I don't know for sure that that's the

00:55:11.450 --> 00:55:14.950

<v Gordon>case, but I've heard that story enough times that apparently they genetically,

00:55:15.130 --> 00:55:18.550

<v Gordon>not genetically, they just bred these chickens to be so much white meat that

00:55:18.550 --> 00:55:19.910

<v Gordon>they're no longer really a chicken.

00:55:20.990 --> 00:55:22.370

<v Doc>It's a turducken.

00:55:25.630 --> 00:55:28.690

<v Doc>Man, gee, this is way too much fun. Like, this is what happens,

00:55:28.770 --> 00:55:32.070

<v Doc>people, when Gordon and I get to hang out in real life at our podcast days.

00:55:32.090 --> 00:55:33.770

<v Doc>We just sit there and talk smack all day.

00:55:33.790 --> 00:55:35.350

<v Gordon>See us with a couple of cocktails in our heads.

00:55:35.350 --> 00:55:39.430

<v Doc>I really wanted to help you start to realize that, yeah, you should definitely

00:55:39.430 --> 00:55:41.010

<v Doc>lock in some of your things.

00:55:42.190 --> 00:55:45.210

<v Doc>And there are things that you should definitely, we had this definite conversation

00:55:45.210 --> 00:55:48.230

<v Doc>about trademarking Doc Pops.

00:55:48.490 --> 00:55:54.190

<v Doc>And I was completely ready to go. But full transparency, I just got told I need

00:55:54.190 --> 00:55:58.570

<v Doc>to bring 8,000 pieces of foam home because I can no longer ship it from the

00:55:58.570 --> 00:56:01.810

<v Doc>factory because the tariffs are going to cost more than the foam.

00:56:01.810 --> 00:56:08.330

<v Doc>So i have to parlay my podcasting budget to pay this shit back 8 000 pieces

00:56:08.330 --> 00:56:14.990

<v Doc>of foam and pay the terrace on it myself holy moly yeah yeah it's kind of piece of crap i'm super mad

00:56:16.210 --> 00:56:21.350

<v Doc>i didn't pick this let's just put it that way so how can people get a hold of

00:56:21.350 --> 00:56:23.230

<v Doc>you g if they need to find you well

00:56:23.230 --> 00:56:26.950

<v Gordon>The website is g is gordonfiremark.com as you mentioned i almost got you there.

00:56:27.230 --> 00:56:31.850

<v Gordon>You can get me on social media. It's G Firemark, except Instagram,

00:56:32.070 --> 00:56:33.590

<v Gordon>where it's my full name, Gordon Firemark.

00:56:33.730 --> 00:56:36.750

<v Gordon>So you can find me on all those places and love to hear from you.

00:56:37.593 --> 00:56:42.553

<v Doc>There you go. Listen, people, Gordon is literally one of the nicest human beings on the planet.

00:56:42.793 --> 00:56:47.273

<v Doc>And then I just saw something on YouTube one day and I was like, yo, this is pretty good.

00:56:47.493 --> 00:56:51.193

<v Doc>But we already have Gordon. So let me fling out a message to Gordon.

00:56:51.353 --> 00:56:53.293

<v Doc>And Gordon was like, thought you never asked, player.

00:56:55.053 --> 00:56:58.953

<v Doc>I was like, leave me alone. Leave me alone, Gordon. Super good,

00:56:59.033 --> 00:57:01.693

<v Doc>man. Thank you so much for coming through to the flow.

00:57:01.853 --> 00:57:06.353

<v Doc>People listen, we do this every single Tuesday. Well, let's holler at most Tuesdays.

00:57:06.513 --> 00:57:11.193

<v Doc>And you can find out more about this at flow.ecam.com.

00:57:11.313 --> 00:57:15.073

<v Doc>That's F-L-O-W.E-C-A-M-M.com.

00:57:15.253 --> 00:57:18.593

<v Doc>You can also get the podcast wherever your podcast getting is got.

00:57:18.753 --> 00:57:23.233

<v Doc>And the video versions land on YouTube a week after.

00:57:23.733 --> 00:57:28.973

<v Doc>Luis, who is producing today, will chop this up and put out a finished release

00:57:28.973 --> 00:57:30.553

<v Doc>that shows up in the YouTube playlist.

00:57:30.733 --> 00:57:35.213

<v Doc>So by all means, go and get connected with the flow. If you go to the website,

00:57:35.473 --> 00:57:38.433

<v Doc>you can leave us voicemails. You can leave us reviews. You can leave us questions.

00:57:38.733 --> 00:57:44.153

<v Doc>We have lots of ways to get ahold of us. So make sure you go in and get that locked in.

00:57:44.273 --> 00:57:48.593

<v Doc>So go and check that out. Now, this show was sponsored by Capshow.

00:57:49.393 --> 00:57:58.733

<v Doc>That's C-A-P-S-H-O.com. And we actually have a big Capshow Ecamm challenge coming

00:57:58.733 --> 00:58:00.933

<v Doc>up next week. It's called Who Dare Stream.

00:58:01.113 --> 00:58:04.713

<v Doc>If you've been thinking about live streaming or getting your production game

00:58:04.713 --> 00:58:08.453

<v Doc>together and you haven't done so, this is a good time.

00:58:08.613 --> 00:58:13.453

<v Doc>We're going to show you how easy it is to pair Ecamm and Cap Show to make your

00:58:13.453 --> 00:58:16.693

<v Doc>show, let's say how Doc would call it, straight gangster.

00:58:16.953 --> 00:58:22.513

<v Doc>So go ahead and check out CapShow.com and don't forget to join the Who Dare

00:58:22.513 --> 00:58:25.833

<v Doc>Stream challenge with Ecamm and Cap Show because it's absolutely free. It's free.

00:58:26.213 --> 00:58:29.013

<v Doc>Yeah, If you sign up for the E-Cab email list and we'll get it.

00:58:29.173 --> 00:58:30.613

<v Doc>And Paul is putting a link in the chat.

00:58:30.773 --> 00:58:34.873

<v Doc>But yeah, family, just go and check out Capshow. It really will make your job

00:58:34.873 --> 00:58:41.073

<v Doc>a lot easier to help you promote, execute your show, and let people know that you exist.

00:58:41.573 --> 00:58:46.033

<v Doc>You know what it is, Flo Riders? It is the time of day when we wrap this show

00:58:46.033 --> 00:58:48.293

<v Doc>up. And I always say, Flo Riders!

00:58:49.840 --> 00:59:12.566

<v Music>